- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I have been a member of the church for over 32 yrs. I was baptized at 16. I did NOT have a testimony as was promised if I prayed and read the scriptures. It all sounded logical to me at the time and I determined that if there was a God then this was his church. I spent 24 years trying to be spiritual. I did all the “right” things. I was as obedient as I could be to all that I understood I was to do and be. I had more than 10 children. I was more a fundamentalist Christian than a Mormon. I read the scriptures and took them as literally as possible. I NEVER reached the level of spirituality that I thought was available out of living the “gospel” as I understood it. I had a complete breakdown over 11 years ago when I only had 9 children. At that point I threw all belief out. I ceased to accept that one must earn their way in to heaven by obeying ANY laws or commandments. When I finally had spiritual experiences that were deep, moving, life changing, I was at the Landmark Forum. At that point I finally acknowledged that I had no testimony of God, Christ, Joseph Smith, the church or anything else. At that point I began a new life. I began to love other people, I began to have no need to forgive other people as I accepted them exactly as they are and exactly as they aren’t, I experienced forgiveness from myself to myself, from my spouse to me, and from many others to me, I asked for forgiveness of others and admitted my wrongs. I now believe that acceptance is the deepest form of love and spirituality available to me and those I am in contact with. I felt loved for the first time in my life and I truly loved for the first time nine years ago. Over the last nine years of loving others as unconditionally as I can consciously do I have recreated my belief structure to where it does not match the LDS set of beliefs required to attend the temple. I had been doing mental gymnastics to be able to answer the first 4 questions the way expected and still retain some integrity. I recently decided to face the truth and tell the truth. I am now informed by the Bishop that if I do not say that I believe that God has a body of flesh and bones then God will not allow the Bishop to give me a recommend. I also answered his question, “Do you want to know?” with a definite “NO” and informed him that i am happy with my beliefs now. I am very very happy.
So, I found Mormon Stories a while back and was listening to the podcasts, then the site was taken down, I then found NOM.org and I am inspired by some of the posts. I hoped this might be a better match as I want to participate in the church even if I cannot stand before anyone and testify of the truthfulness of God, the Church, the prophet, or the Gospel AND I am not allowed in the temple to attend my children’s weddings etc. I am not mad at them. I am frustrated at times that I am who I am. At most other times i am happy that I am a thinking human being with overachiever tendencies. For years it was important for me to be “right” Now I just want to be happy and have my family happy. I am concerned about the shakeup that will happen once my differences are out in the open for my children to see, whenever that happens.
My husband is a sweetheart and has never openly condemned me for my unbelief. I am sure I have been nicer to him since I gave up on my perception of the God of the mormon church and all the to do’s to get to the celestial Kingdom and the leaving out of so many on the earth. My mom was NOT allowed at my wedding because she does not believe in God the way mormons do nor was she willing to give her life to the church. She has never been a member of any church as far as I know. She does believe in a supreme being. I have felt that the church does More dividing than connecting of families for all their talk of family being the most important reason to join the church, to have them forever.
Now that i have said all that I need to know if this is a place for me or am i not yet repentent enough by not saying that I want to believe their way. I want to participate and not tear anyone’s faith from them. I love it that my husband and kids have complete faith and strong testimonies. For me with a literal mind my understanding of the required beliefs did not work to the best advantage toward my being loving.
Monkey, for what it’s worth, there is nothing in the temple recommend that requires one to believe that God has a body of flesh and bones. NOTHING. The question simply is if you believe in Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Nothing more. If your Bishop is saying what you say he is, he is wrong. If there’s more to it than that, and his focus is a way to address that, he might be right. However, the wording in your post is not in harmony with the wording of the questions and the counsel of the Brethren. I don’t know your Stake President, and I don’t know your ward and Bishop, but if you really, really want to attend the temple (and feel comfortable answering the questions as they actually are worded), I would encourage you to talk with your Stake President about it. Be calm and loving and sincere – focusing strictly on how you have re-built your faith and want to have the spirit of the temple in your life as you continue to keep rebuilding it. If you are at peace with your current situation, ignore what I just said. *grin*
Ray, I was the one who told him that I did not believe the way that the church teaches. I decided that I would prefer to be completely open and honest. He questioned me quite a bit then took 2 weeks to think about whether he could issue a recommend. When we met after two weeks he wanted to know if I wanted to know if the teachings were true. I said that I really did not. At that he told me that if I did not believe that God had a body of Flesh and bones then he could not issue me a recommend. I am at peace with that part of my life. It is the next part that is a bit concerning but not blocking my life. The next part is the kids finding out. We will let it go til it must be communicated. I feel very free to not have to hide anything from anyone if they ask. I am a compulsive question answerer and much prefer to tell the truth exactly as I see it. Now I will do that with any and all, including my children. I have rarely lied to them, I have been very careful to just tell them that I dont see it exactly as other people do or as the church teaches. They know something is up anyway. it is all good. Thanks for responding. The question asks if I have Faith in or a Testimony of God the Eternal Father, his son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. I really dont have faith in or a testimony of any of it. I know that I recieve information in my mind and a great burning in the busom when I am filled with love, faith, hope, honor, awe, admiration of ANYONE. I know I am guided and blessed regularly. I have no belief, faith, or testimony of a Father with a body of flesh and bones as the church teaches. I have a completely different view of the atonement than one that a man/god took all the sins of all of us upon himself. I have experienced at-one-ment when I have repented in the sense of the definition in the Bible dictionary where it states that it means I have gotten a Fresh view about God, a fresh view about ones self, and a fresh view about the world.
Gail
Gail, you might be interested in two things I wrote a while ago: A “Fresh View”of Repentance (
http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/01/rethinking-repentance.html More Thoughts on Repentance (
http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/06/more-thoughts-on-repentance.html Monkey wrote:I want to participate and not tear anyone’s faith from them. I love it that my husband and kids have complete faith and strong testimonies. For me with a literal mind my understanding of the required beliefs did not work to the best advantage toward my being loving.
Welcom Monkey! (Is that what you like to be called?)
I hope you are taking Ray’s words to heart, I think he is trying to be loving and inclusive the way Jesus demonstrated throughout his life.
I love these things you posted at the end of your intro. In my view if you don’t want to tear down anyone’s faith, and if you want to participate in the church to reap some personal/spiritual benefit for yourself then you are fully welcome here at StayLDS! We have no requirement for specific beliefs, I think we for the most part share the general goal of wanting to grow personally (become better people) and we want to participate in the LDS church looking for positive fruits from that participation. That doesn’t mean we will always agree with everything the sunday school teacher says (who does anyway?) I think if you hang around here you’ll find that we don’t care WHAT you believe specifically, as much as we appreciate THAT you do have personal beliefs that you cherish. If your beliefs are love based I for one will always respect them. We are a community of inclusion, I believe that is what the essence of God supports.
I hope in the near future we’ll get more of a framework up of the basics for re-integrating into the LDS faith community from our perspective. It is not a pre-determined or clearly defined path, but rather a highly individualized path – although there are some items that many people have found helpful, at least to start out with depending on their particular position. These things include: Look for the good, Consider the metaphorical, Avoid absolutism and Love is the law. From my (short) experience reading the right material and pondering the relevant questions go a long way toward building a new and positive relationship.
Again, welcome!
Hi Monkey, Welcome to the StayLDS forums! I really got a lot from your personal introduction. Thanks for sharing a part of your life journey and your perspectives. I enjoyed and connected with your process of throwing out your huge pile of baggage, and then discovering this clarity of love, peace and acceptance. Although not exactly the same journey, I feel a lot like that too these days. It’s a fascinating paradox, to gain understanding by losing surety.
Monkey wrote:I began to love other people, I began to have no need to forgive other people as I accepted them exactly as they are and exactly as they aren’t, I experienced forgiveness from myself to myself, from my spouse to me, and from many others to me, I asked for forgiveness of others and admitted my wrongs. I now believe that acceptance is the deepest form of love and spirituality available to me and those I am in contact with.
That was beautifully said.
Monkey wrote:I am now informed by the Bishop that if I do not say that I believe that God has a body of flesh and bones then God will not allow the Bishop to give me a recommend. I also answered his question, “Do you want to know?” with a definite “NO”
I agree with Ray. It is not correct procedure for the Bishop or Stake President to define the temple questions for the person being interviewed. If that is the only issue, it doesn’t seem right. I would guess that it’s all wrapped up in your unburdening to him about all your beliefs and views. That is why a lot of us don’t recommend unloading this burden to leaders, unless we are sure they are the type of person to handle them (which seems rare from people’s experience unfortunately).
I have similar doubts as you, but maybe not quite as deep in that direction. I would tell my Bishop that I believe God has a body of flesh and bones. I would end that statement right there with a period. That’s what he wants to hear. It would make him comfortable. I would also not be lying or insincere. I believe God can have an existence as a white-haired, bearded man sitting on a throne with a body of flesh and bones if He wants to. I just wouldn’t have to tell the Bishop that I think God could have many different types of manifestations. He could also be a woman, a spirit, a light, an urge towards goodness, and many other forms. But to say the He definately does NOT have a body of “flesh and bones” is limiting God in my mind. Fine. I’m ok saying God has a body of flesh and bones, and I am telling the truth when I say that. That certainly is possible. I’m not so firmly tied anymore to God being one and only one thing, which is the thing that WE want him to be.
Monkey wrote:I want to participate and not tear anyone’s faith from them. I love it that my husband and kids have complete faith and strong testimonies. For me with a literal mind my understanding of the required beliefs did not work to the best advantage toward my being loving.
This point in faith is what our community is about. If people are still too angry and sure, or they want to correct everyone else’s false beliefs at Church, they probably would not fit in so good here. The most important thing is we do not want to take anything from someone else. They can shed their baggage when it’s their time. We are trying to coexist peacefully with them. It is possible. I hope it is.
Orson said, I hope you are taking Ray’s words to heart, I think he is trying to be loving and inclusive the way Jesus demonstrated throughout his life.
I dont know exactly which words you were referring to. I read the papers he wrote and agree with the principle of putting the good in and the bad will take care of itself. I have experienced that the new view just simply removes the old view which was the root of alot of my negative thoughts and behaviors. I am SOOOO happy to have a new view of myself, God and the world. Fabulous way to eliminate “sin” AND “transgression.” My experience says that for me it is THE only way for me to do it. I tried for years and years the control and suppression and the 4 Rs of repentence. NEVER succeeded at having any kind of spiritual experience through that method. The other method has produced a ton of being filled with love, hope, charity, faith, worth, value etc. etc. etc. I will NEVER go back to the old way of dealing with my negative thoughts or actions that are hurtful to me or others.
I appreciate the welcome. I do feel that I am in the middle somehow. By the definitions in another thread here about the differences between NOM and STAYLDS, I find I fit the definition better of the NOM and I have not found the positive conversation about the church and it’s “GOOD” to be very strong there. I do like that I find like mindedly confused people there with similar personal beliefs. And i intend to be attached to the LDS church til my death. I cannot be continually reminded of all the stuff I dont believe since I am in church 3 hours per week and listening to the TBM stuff the whole time. I really have to be in tune with the good. Right now I often come home with something I disagree with to talk to my husband about. This sunday was the first sunday in a long time that I did NOT do that. I honestly did not get uncomfortable at church this past sunday. I like that. I love the humble people in my ward. They are the most truthful, loving, open, unashamed, willing to admit their frailties people I have ever associated with in any ward EVER. I want to associate with them AND not belittle their beliefs or teachings just because I dont have them. And I need posetive input. Thank you all for sharing.
And, yes, I like to be called monkey. My dad always called me peanut and my mom called me monkey as a child. Thank you for asking. I thought it was such a great annonomous name then I found other similar names on NOM. Too funny. Always trying to be “different” while simply being exactly like everybody else. Ha. LOL
Welcome Monkey, I really enjoyed what you had to say and related to much of it. Also I certainly hope you are in the right place as if your not them I doubt I am either. The whole Bishop thing that really sucks, all I can say is what a silly thing to keep a person out of the Temple for. These guys are in symbolic roles and have no right to deviate from that . I like my Bishops philosopy “if your going to error , error on the side of temple” . BTW I found this great quote for you ” If triangles could think , their God would be eminently triangular” Baruch Spinoza , it’s sort of related , thought you would get a laugh 
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.