- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Elder Oaks April 2008 conference talk “testimony” is one that I have spent much time reflecting on since I first heard it. I am intrigued by how he compares gospel ‘knowledge’ to the knowledge that we love our spouse. This is not a scientific knowledge that is available for external tests, but it is personal and subjective. What has struck me most recently is how a sincere belief that love exists – actually makes that love real. (I believe I love someone, therefore I feel the love for that person.) It’s almost impossible to separate the belief in the love from the love itself, I think you could say the belief actually creates the love (though I could imagine an argument that love exists even if someone is in denial about it).
Does this idea translate to the spiritual? Will a belief in some spiritual idea actually make that idea ‘real’ – at least as far as that individual is concerned? I’m not trying to reduce spirituality here, I’m trying to elevate that part of our will that I believe is divine (and that it can actually create something that is personally meaningful). I wouldn’t dare say love is meaningless – or even less valuable – because we can create it (almost) at will. Maybe love already exists between everyone, we simply need to uncover it.
I don’t know, just throwing out some random thoughts. Are spiritual ‘truths’ subjective? Do they already exist and we simply need to uncover them? Subjective by definition is internal, as opposed to objective or external and available for scrutiny. How does this affect our desire to blend spiritual ideas with “universal truths?”
Orson, just a quick thought: We live in a post-rationalist age, when we define “truth” and “knowledge” in absolute terms. I love Nephi’s definition of “true” – essentially, “it is according to my experiences and understanding, and I am not lying about it”. In other words, if someone is expressing something they believe sincerely due to their own experiences, it is “true” for them.
I really like that, since it allows everyone to discover “truth” in the context of their own lives. I understand the issues involved, but I think the benefits outweigh the danger – and “the truth shall make you free” resonates more fully in that context for me than in any other.
Well, the philosophers say it can’t be proven that we even exist, therefore we simply take that as a premise. Likewise, I like to say, “I believe I am a child of God, as I believe I am real.” Is that kind of what you are saying? Some problems or questions about what Brother Oaks
seemsto be saying: What does he mean by “gospel”? Surely he’s not saying he can know that all other churches are “not true” as he knows he loves his wife!
What does he mean by knowing he loves his wife? How can he possibly know that? If God is love, isn’t it blasphemous to claim that I know I love?
HopeI may, but knowI cannot. I hope I love my wife. What he is saying seems to boil down to saying, “I know I am happiest staying in the church, as I am happiest with my wife.”
So does testimony mean anything or does it not? Is my unitarian spiritualist testimony okay by him, or is he saying something else?
If the purpose of that is to say that “know” = “feel,” that’s a pretty accurate description of religious “knowledge,” IMO. I personally don’t like the word “knowledge” applied to religion. It seems to imply a certainty that we can’t really possess. We can have a strong feeling. I’m okay with that. Why not make up a new word instead of “knowledge” like “bluxark.” I bluxark that God loves me. I bluxark that Jesus lives. I bluxark that I love my husband. Hah – now that I said that, the editor in me can clearly see the word is unnecessary. The sentences are stronger if you just say “God loves me.” “Jesus lives.” “I love my husband.” Quote:The sentences are stronger if you just say “God loves me.” “Jesus lives.” “I love my husband.”
This is so true.
Okay, this is going to show you what stage of life I’m in right now, but I was watching Spongebob with my children the other day and the storyline hit me in such a religious way. Spongebob, Patrick and Squidward are stuck out in the jungle and Squidward is freaking out because they don’t know how to get out. Spongebob and Patrick aren’t the least bit worried. Spongebob pulls out a conch shell toy and says “Don’t worry, we’ll ask the Magic Conch”. Squidward cannot believe that they are trying to get answers in such a ridiculous way. They ask the Magic Conch shell what they should do and it says “nothing” so they sit down and do nothing. Squidward runs around like crazy trying to find a way out but ends up back with Spongebob and Patrick. Then a plane is flying overhead and has to drop its load because it is crashing. It just happens to be a picnic table filled with food that lands in front of Spongebob and Patrick. They say it is because of the Magic Conch shell and are happy. Squidward comes over and asks if he can have some of their food. They say sure. He is about to eat it, but makes fun of the Magic Conch shell in the process so they tell him he has to ask the Magic Conch shell before he eats anything. Well, when he asks what he can eat the Magic Conch shell says “Nothing”.
So here is the point of my story…Spongebob and Patrick believe that the Magic Conch shell works and so it does for them. Squidward doesn’t believe it will work and so it doesn’t. And I have to tell you Spongebob and Patrick are much happier than Squidward. I started to think about that and relating it to God. Is my testimony of God similar to their belief in the Magic Conch Shell? I don’t know if this will make sense to anyone else, but it really hit me…the idea of believing in something (like the Spirit or a testimony) and having it work or not believing in it and then of course it doesn’t work.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Why not make up a new word instead of “knowledge” like “bluxark.” I bluxark that God loves me. I bluxark that Jesus lives. I bluxark that I love my husband. Hah – now that I said that, the editor in me can clearly see the word is unnecessary. The sentences are stronger if you just say “God loves me.” “Jesus lives.” “I love my husband.”
I bluxark that this idea amuses me. I feel the bluxark in your message Hawkgrrl.
Ha ha!! May we all seek for greater bluxark! Emma, I loved your story. I think there is something to that. Some people would say it’s only working in your head – selective recognition, but I agree – if it “works” in that it makes you happier — well, isn’t that the point? Can’t we appreciate the effect for that reason alone?
I love that episode of Spongebob! 
What Orson said – and Spongebob is awesome wrapped up in a bindery thing (as my 13-year-old daughter likes to say). Orson wrote:Ha ha!! May we all seek for greater bluxark!
Emma, I loved your story. I think there is something to that. Some people would say it’s only working in your head – selective recognition, but I agree – if it “works” in that it makes you happier — well, isn’t that the point? Can’t we appreciate the effect for that reason alone?
But of course since we are all connected in ways we don’t obviously see right now, the happiness also needs to go all around the world and into the future, or it is a defective happiness.
kupord maizzed wrote:
or it is a defective happiness.Am I busted for using such stark terms? Maybe I should think “an imperfect happiness”
Emma great story thanks. I just had a conversation yesterday with a non-member girlfriend. I was trying to share some of my journey with her to help her understand some of the things I have been going through emotionally of late. As she is not a member I was greateful for her perspective.
I basically was sharing how I once believed certain things, lived that way and have without question been very happy. She was surprised that at that initial point of taking on the belief that I did not want to discover more about what I was committing too etc.
I sort of said to her…”well I kind of didnt need to know or question it any more at that point as what I beleived in was resulting in a happy life etc”. I wanted to believe as it all sounded good, made sense, was logical, no harm was going to come from it, my life improved etc etc.
So I guess again in life I see that in art (eg cartoon show) many profound things can be found! I have always thought that God was able to make connections with us in some of the strangest ways!!!!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.