Being amazed by other religions and movements

I think this forum will fail if apologetics are allowed. Your successive responses to two threads appear apologetic in nature. In both, you are telling me I am at fault for not understanding Mormonism properly.

Moderators, do I misunderstand this forum? I am conscientious about my decision to stay in the church, but I get all the apologetics I need on Sunday.

kupord maizzed, Sincere question:

I was agreeing with you about your central point. I only said that I think the temple ordinances help us recognize what you were saying. How is that unacceptable apologetics?

Second, as my excerpt from the post I linked (and the post as a whole) hopefully shows, I also think people can find true joy in other religions – and that it’s not our place to try to “convert” people who don’t want conversion. I think those who are converted most fully to the Gospel respect the joy in others’ lives and don’t try to destroy that. At the core, I was agreeing with you again. So, to ask again, how is that unacceptable apolgetics?

I really don’t want this forum to become a place to argue, but how can my agreements with you be unacceptable – while your statements with which I agree are acceptable? I honestly don’t understand.

I think this forum will fail if apologetics are allowed.

I agree, and I think that Ray demonstrated exactly what is wrong with the standard TBM answers. The way I read it, the original post talks about the greatness of other religions and asks if we are right in assuming that their baptism isn’t good enough. Ray responds that work for the dead (believing that their baptism isn’t good enough) isn’t at all condescending or arrogant, but that it actually shows that we aren’t any better than anyone else. Ray can put whatever apologetic spin on it that he wants, but most of the world regards this practice as condescending and arrogant. When called on it, Ray just can’t seem to understand.

People who come here have probably heard all of the TBM answers. They’ve heard the ‘just because 10 prophets in a row taught that, it never really was doctrine’ response, they’ve heard the ‘this particular failing with the church is only becuase local leaders aren’t perfect–if the local leaders would just do what the brethren have been teaching, things would be different’ answer, they’ve heard the ‘denying this group the priesthood really is a blessing for them–they are better off without the priesthood’ response. People who come here are looking for something different. They are looking for people to validate, not minimize, their concerns while at the same time showing the value that exists in the church and why it might be worth staying.

When I read the Bhagavad Gita, Near Death testimonies, Walden, Tolstoy, and Ramakrisha, when I see the Free Software movement, Internet cooperation, Wikipedia, when I receive good gifts from all around me, I am amazed. In my amazement I see the LDS Church with new eyes. It no longer towers over all the earth. Instead, it stands as a peer with all the other sects, parties, groups, movements. As I see the others more clearly I appreciate more deeply Mormonism.

The biggest thing in my life that has kept me from throwing the LDS Church out of my life is the study of other religions, especially the mystical experiences of other people. I started this probably a good decade before I was forced to face all the deep historical and doctrinal problems. If I had to describe my path, the way I am working on reconciling my faith and re-integrating back into the Church, I would call the “Mystic Path.”

I have been so very impressed with people outside the Church. I remember several times, years ago, that I brought this up in a sunday school or Elders Quorum class — “If being a member of the Church is the only thing that gives our life value, then God’s plan doesn’t seem to be very efficient.” Yeah, I said that a few times in class. It usually ended in an uncomfortable silence… I just couldn’t accept that. I still can’t. I believe we are all experiencing a journey that is highly tailored to our own special needs. God knows who we are. He/She knows where we are. Our life is right for us. I have hope in that. I look around and see most of the world is not LDS; therefore, I conclude that it is by God’s design. Everyone is experiencing and acting out something important for God (And for themself).

I also believe in the ordinances of the Church at the same time. I believe I experienced the blessings they claim to give. That is my firsthand experience. My rational mind has a hard to understanding how that is possible. I am trying hard to not be so “clever” as to think my way right out of a good thing.

I would say that God is putting together a big puzzle. The people he wants to be Mormon-Shaped, he calls to them. They hear this call and respond when they come across mormonism or bump into missionaries. The people he wants to be Catholic-shaped, he calls to them. So on and so forth.

I’m not really going to worry too much about the people that don’t become Mormons. There are many good, spiritual, enlightened people out there that are loved and accepted by God. I learn a lot from them.

Let me try to be very clear:

1) I am here only to express how I personally have worked through the uncertainty and ambiguity and remained active and faithful in the Church. I ABHOR classic apologetics, when that term means mindless acceptance of parroted (“company line”) answers about everything. If, however, we define “apologetics” as “anything that is more traditional than our own view” we might as well throw in the towel from the beginning. The conclusions I have reached, frankly, are WAY more liberal in some cases than the stereotypical TBM (abortion, homosexuality, BofM translation/transmission, women and the priesthood, etc.), straight down the line in some areas (the need for the 3-hour bloc meeting schedule, the WofW, etc.) and radically conservative in a few others. Contrary to what some would assume, I am considered more liberal than conservative by most people with whom I have spent lots of time one-on-one talking about social and political issues – and within the Mormon community, my vote for Pres. Obama alone is enough to get that designation.

2) I want to believe in the Church and the Restored Gospel, so I INTENTIONALLY have crafted perspectives that allow me to do that – even though most of those perspectives are radically different than most of those with whom I attend church regularly. In the talks I give, I always have at least a handful of active, dedicated, “TBM” members come up to me and say, “I’ve never thought of it that way before.” In all honesty, I view the purpose of most of my talks as helping those members see things more expansively and inclusively more than anything else. I loved Elder Wirthlin’s “orchestra” comment in his plea to accept those who feel left-out and ignored and marginalized, and I weave in that central message in almost every talk I give.

3) The two comments that initiated this discussion were written in much more haste than normal. Generally, I try to re-read what I have written and edit carefully before I submit. I didn’t do that in these cases, since I was in a hurry. That is my fault. I try to comment slowly and carefully explicitly because of other experiences like this – where haste causes misunderstanding. I apologize, sincerely, for that in this case. I will try to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

4) I also am “amazed by other religions and movements”. I think there is awesome value in them, and there is MUCH we as a church can learn from others. I would love to see more passionate singing, more praise-centered talks, more diversity of activities for the youth, more focus on large-scale, local, practical service, etc. I am inspired by the Muslim dedication to prayer; I love the symbolism of Catholic mass; Buddhism enthralls me (if I weren’t Mormon, I am sure I would be Buddhist.); Confucius was an incredible prophet, imo; etc. Comparative Religion was my favorite subject in college, specifically because I want to learn from others’ perspective. I even listen to the evangelical radio shows when I travel in rural OH, since there almost always is something I can learn from the sermons – even those that include things that are diametrically opposed to some of the core principals that are taught in the Church.

5) My temple work comment was directed exclusively at the question of temple work. I don’t see those ordinances as condescending; I see them as a conscious way to recognize that ALL good people will be saved/exalted by God – that the lives they lived will qualify them for the blessings of Godliness. That’s what I meant in my comment – that we don’t have to try to baptize everyone here in this life – that God will work it all out in the end, just as the original post said. I’m sorry that meaning got lost in my rushed words; I truly meant to agree with the point of the post.

6) I also apologize for the length of this comment, but I want to make sure we don’t start out on the wrong foot and never recover. I am an ardent parser, since I don’t want to misunderstand or be misunderstood, so I try to be very careful in what I write. Obviously, I failed in my rushed attempt to comment last time. Please forgive that botched attempt and take me at my word that I’m not here to write apologetics or convince others of the correctness of my personal opinions. I’m only here to share how I have come to reconcile things in my own mind over the years while I have struggled to understand the Church and the Gospel better.

The way I read it, the original post talks about the greatness of other religions and asks if we are right in assuming that their baptism isn’t good enough. Ray responds that work for the dead (believing that their baptism isn’t good enough) isn’t at all condescending or arrogant, but that it actually shows that we aren’t any better than anyone else.

People who come here have probably heard all of the TBM answers. People who come here are looking for something different. They are looking for people to validate, not minimize, their concerns while at the same time showing the value that exists in the church and why it might be worth staying.

Thank you. I feel understood. I will try harder to help others here feel understood.

KM

kupord maizzed,

Fwiw, I hope this is a good place for you. Frankly, we are at quite different points in the “dealing with it” scale, but we both are on the scale.

I hope this comes out the way I mean it, but I agree completely with your definition of purpose. Ironically, that is due largely to the fact that I see things so much differently than many of the other fully active, “believing” and “practicing” members of my ward and stake. On the outside, and in more shallow conversations, I look and sound just like them, but when we dig a bit deeper and really flesh out the finer points surrounding our shared core beliefs, we often are extremely different. I deal so much with trying to teach acceptance and grace and respect for differing opinions that getting people to the point where they can “cope . . . with new eyes and ears” is a huge effort of mine – since I believe it will take new eyes and ears for the Church to become fully what I believe it is supposed to be.

I understand the difficulty in what I am going to say next, but I hope the coping with new eyes and ears leads to a way for those new eyes and ears to become “faithful” eyes and ears – even if “faithful” means something totally different now than it did previously. That’s how it is for me now; my eyes and ears are “faithful”, but they aren’t the same “faithful” eyes and ears I used to have. I now see it as “full of faith”, as opposed to “knowing all” or “being like everyone else”. I hope that makes sense.