The Great Apostasy

I tend to agree that the heavens never close to those who are seeking revelation, although the dark ages were a pretty dark time IMO, and there are some major problems with all world religions if you trace them back to their origins. If you keep a perspective of things being open (hearts, minds, the heavens, open canon, etc.) you’re right in line with JS. He was all about embracing the good of all faiths and attended other churches even though he did not join them due to his own experiences. Why should we not feel and do likewise? There’s more to be learned from the good others do than by shunning or judging anyone different from us. That’s just my opinion.

Not sure it totally answered your question. Do I think there was a great apostasy? Not as stark as many define it certainly. But I do think the world has some pretty bad patches of history on the collective level (Inquisition, Communism, burning heretics, the Borgias, etc.). I just believe that God has inspired people throughout all time also. Question -do you think Mohammed was a prophet?

I tend to agree overall with Hawkgrrrl. I guess I’m mostly through my “details” stage where I needed to dissect everything and really get down to the nuts and bolts. I believe it is good to work through these things, you have to go where your heart and mind lead you, kick out all the loose rocks and find the foundation on which you stand. From there I hope we can look for all the “details” that are in common, the things that unite us with our fellowmen (as you are obviously doing also, I love to see that). Yes, there will always be differences, but recently I find myself more interested in the common ground. I appreciate the comment “the dark ages were pretty dark” and “the world has some pretty bad patches of history.” I enjoy looking at how even the people who professed to follow Jesus during those times failed miserably in many ways to uphold his central theme. I can agree that yes, it does look like the world let go of his teachings, I can see how people call that a Great Apostasy. The most important aspect of “the restoration” to me is the intent to get back to the central teachings of Jesus – that the only hope for ‘salvation’ is if we can collectively learn to love everyone and transform the world through that power. Knowledge is power, knowledge of what works is what the priesthood is all about to me. Faith is also a big part of it, faith puts things into motion.

That’s kind of where I’m at anyway. I try to grasp the part of the message that does ring true.

Thanks for the thought provoking question. It is helpful to consider all these things.

What is the value that you are seeing to being fully LDS that I am not seeing? I do feel to be LDS, but not to that extent. I’m trying to learn here, but I am failing to see the value in affiliating so closely.

Truth Restored? Sure, to me personally, to Mother Teresa, and to Joseph Smith.

Forgive me for being so difficult about this. I really want to understand and agree.

Here is a possible question:

What is it about being LDS that makes you want to be it so fully?

I can’t answer for Orson or anyone else, but this question reminds me of something Richard Bushman talks about in an interview.

there is a paradox here, to be zealous and striving and eager about anything that you are involved in, you have to believe in it. You have to believe it really is good. That people will benefit from it and that’s true for whether you’re trying to teach people to drink clean water in Africa or trying to teach kids that they have to do their school work and get an education or whatever, you have to really believe it’s going to make a difference and for Mormonism to be an energetic and effective organization, it has to have that kind of zeal, that does come out with language like “the only true church” or “this is God’s way” and so on, but there are also scriptures in Mormonism which as you well know are prominent, easily found that say the spirit of Christ is given to every person and God reveals to every person what is good for them, what is truth for them as if, you know, Heavenly Father is watching over his children on every little corner of the earth and testifying to them of what is good, leading them along, sending them prophets of a kind. So, I think we just have to live with that fact that we’re both universalistic, allowing God’s spirit to reign over the whole earth and bless all people everywhere and particularistic, that ours is the true and good way and if you aren’t comfortable with that you’re going to be uncomfortable in Mormonism because that’s just the way we think. We’ve got both poles in our minds at once.

The part of this quote that I really wanted to point out is the first line….to be eager about anything you are involved in you have to believe in it. For me there are many reasons to stay and participate in the LDS church and if I’m going to participate I need to have some core belief in it.

I agree with hawkgrrrl. We have had some pretty bad patches of history (before and after the Restoration when you think about it). The God I believe in would not disappear of the face of the earth even if there were bad patches.

Yes, I believe in the Great Apostasy – mostly because I also believe in all the lesser apostasies throughout the history of humanity. I don’t define the Great Apostasy as harshly as many members, since I certainly accept that God inspired lots of people during that time period and called numerous prophets during that time period, but I generally talk about “The Great Christian Apostasy” as the time period when many of the central, core teachings of the Gospel as purportedly preached by Jesus of Nazareth were changed into creeds created by politician-theologians. I believe inspiration and revelation continued to flow to mankind to varying degrees, but, institutionally, Christianity changed dramatically in its portrayal of God, the Father, and our relationship to Him.

I am one who doesn’t mind the “creeds are an abomination” phrase in JSH 1:19, since I believe that many of the later Protestant creeds that were the focus of that statement (like the Westminster Confession) truly are abominable.

Summary: I don’t define “the Great Apostasy” in a way that many members would accept, since I also believe that the Aaronic Priesthood could have continued for a long time within Christianity after the closing of the canon and both priesthoods could have existed in other cultures and outside of what we know of Christianity at different times during that period, but I still believe in the concept of apostasy, in general, and the Great Christian Apostasy, specifically. I also believe there are elements of that apostasy still in existence in the modern LDS Church – that the final pruning of Jacob 5 includes rooting those things out of existence within our own community.

If anyone is interested, I wrote a parser’s analysis of JSH 1:19 on Mormon Matters:

http://mormonmatters.org/2008/08/27/common-scriptures-in-review-jsh-119/

Orson, Ray, and Valoel,

I really like your latest posts. Each one has some key things that I really identify with and agree with.

Valoel, you took the words out of my mouth regarding what happened to the message of Jesus. I agree that that is apostasy in the classical sense, or perhaps simple early hijacking.

Ray, I am right with you regarding the abominable creeds that corrupt all their professors. We each personally may partake of the same error as we are dogmatic rather than loving. I’m not sure how much restoration ever occurred, but I sure believe in the promise.

The people closest to me don’t like associating with “odd ducks”, and they certainly won’t listen to one preach. I don’t feel good about being “under cover” or having some “hidden agenda”, so maybe that does make me want to integrate more fully and honestly. In the end I am who I am, I will not pretend to be something I’m not. I will always try to grow into something better (and perhaps more compatible with church activity) but I also know I need to be honest with myself. It can be a bit of a tight rope walk sometimes, but I see any such situation as an opportunity for personal growth.

This expresses some important truths about Staying LDS, I believe. It is an important opportunity.

The only part I am not sure I agree with is this:

I don’t feel good about being “under cover” or having some “hidden agenda”, so maybe that does make me want to integrate more fully and honestly.

But perhaps I am threadjacking.

KM

I think there was a very serious apostasy after the death of Jesus Christ. It sure looks to me like his teachings didn’t survive intact very long.

I honestly wonder if it was even fully understood by some of the original twelve apostles. IOW, was it already getting mixed up. The earliest gospels over a generation after the Savior’s death. It seems as though many things were already being confused within the NT.

I have my doubts sometimes about Paul. I think there are strong arguments that Paul hijacked the “Jesus Movement” and took it in a very different direction.

OK, so I often wonder about Paul, too. He is credited with the success of Christianity, and his writings are poetic and well-written. But he drives the cart a little close to the edge sometimes. He could be the BRM of the early church (very confident, but sometimes off base). I realize the task was great, having to incorporate many new cultures (Christ almost exclusively taught in a very tight geographic area, unless you subscribe to the theory that he made it to Japan in the lost years and practiced Buddhism). Paul is definitely the first written source of a lot of ideas, and he was a post-Christ Christian.

To say that Paul is an enigma for me would be an understatement. I admire him greatly, but I LOVE the “BRM of his time” description.