Deja Vue

valoel just summarized my general thoughts. I also know of too many people who didn’t like the idea but recorded some powerful witnesses that they should accept it to dismiss it out of hand as nothing more than a way to get laid.

I am more interested, however, in the fact that I know of quite a few members who never did really accept or practice it but who remained faithful members and never lost their testimony of Joseph as a prophet – and if they could do that in the middle of it, I figure I can do it totally removed from it. I just don’t know, so I cut him some slack and allow for divine inspiration in the general idea even if I have concerns about the implementation.

Also, just as something to ponder, since most (if not all) of Christianity formally denies any wedded state in the next life, what’s the big deal (really) over eternal monogamy versus polygamy? I say that slightly tongue-in-cheek, but think about it for a minute. Technically, we’d be every bit as heretical even if we taught strictly monogamous “marital status” in the hereafter, since they don’t believe that marriages continue anyway. Therefore, the truly heretical aspect is not whether some people might or might not have multiple spouses but the mere fact that they will be married – even if only to one spouse. Eternal marriage shattered the then current theology; polygamy was just one more straw on an already overburdened camel’s back.

In that light, since it’s highly unlikely that, when all is said and done, there will have been an exactly equal number of males and females born into mortality – or that there will be an exactly equal number of worthy male and female spirits who qualify for the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom – don’t we have to accept, at the very least, the possibility that there will be some polygamous relationships there if we are going to hang onto the basic concept? I reconcile that by believing there will be no sexual relations in the next life as we know them here (that the creation of spirit children will not include “sexual activity”), but I think it’s hard to reject the possibility of some sort of polygamy out of hand.

That’s why I believe the concept of dynastic sealing (non-sexual sealings) might have been the ultimate goal of the practice as intended by God, with the prophets seeing the concept “through a glass, darkly” and getting it messed up in the process. I might be totally wrong with that guess, but it makes sense to me.

I am going to beat Ray to the parsing of words, which is a feat in itself — he being the master parser.

Definition (from the online American Heritage Dictionay):

“Philanderer”

1. To carry on a sexual affair, especially an extramarital affair, with a woman one cannot or does not intend to marry. Used of a man.

2. To engage in many love affairs, especially with a frivolous or casual attitude. Used of a man.

The strange thing with Joseph Smith was this — he actually married all those women! 😯 . So he technically wasn’t a philanderer. Now I know that is splitting some hairs for sure, but I think there are indications that Joseph also thought along these lines. Right or wrong, he did not consider these “affairs” to be adultery or fornication. That at least was his argument among his closest confidants. We really won’t ever know all of what went on. Too much is lost in the fading history. I think JS believed this stuff. That is the impression I get. Delusional or not, he believed it.

There’s a big pile of evidence for Joseph courting women and marrying them — 30 or more women. Except perhaps Fanny Alger, there aren’t many (any?) stories of him being involved in purely casual, sexual relationships. He went a few outrageous steps past being a “philanderer.”

Here’s my “rationalization”.

JS was given a d*mn tough job. He believed God wanted him to create the Kingdom of God on earth. As I look at his life, I see him doing a pretty good job of it, overall. There were some speedbumps, like polygamy. All he wanted to know was why it was ok for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and a bunch of other OT dudes. Well, that’s his story, right? I have studied this a lot, and have no compelling reason to doubt his version of his story, at least when it comes to polygamy.

Then you look at how it branched off into polyandry. Look at the doctrine of adoption. Both involved temple (“eternal”) sealings, of both men and women, to himself.

I personally think it likely that Joseph was just trying as best he could, to duplicate the order of Heaven that he had a glimpse of in vision. Everyone up there is, IMO, linked together in networks of relationships of one sort or another. No one is alone. I just think it was his best shot at bringing that heavenly order down to earth. He was a brave man. Was he right? I don’t know. But I do know he was really, really brave. I personally believe he was sincere, too. Wise? Probably not.

HiJolly

Bested at parsing! Man, I must be slipping. 😳

Great point, valoel.

You know – I dont think the stuff with Joe Smith is that big an issue for me personally

So what he wasnt a perfect messanger from God

Lets look at it

Moses at times didnt do things striaght away

Jonah and the Whale anyone?

Apart from Jesus himself (who was a Prophet of sorts) can anyone tell me ANY prophet that didnt make SOME kind of mistake?

you forgot the kilo of salt so you can later on take a lot of what your critics say with a pinch of it! lol

Valoel’s recipe certainly works for prophets like OT/NT and JS, but that’s probably one reason some complain that LDS prophets post-BY aren’t “prophetic” enough: 1) they aren’t making major pronouncements, and 2) they are like normal grandfatherly people, not crazy old coots (for the most part anyway). So, does a prophet have to be crazy to qualify?

I had a couple of thoughts along these lines:

– The definition of a prophet is one who warns. Lots of people could fit that definition, certainly all the FP & 12. A prophet doesn’t have to be a founder of a religion (all those look pretty crazy) or a person who predicts the future (nut jobs, every one).

– Some of the prophets of old might have seemed less crazy in their own time (maybe everyone from that era would seem crazy to us now).

– There are a lot of studies about how prolonged deep prayer or meditation over time actually changes someone’s brain through development of areas that are underused in other individuals. Malcolm Gladwell also recently noted in his book Outliers that it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert at something (think Bill Gates level expertise). Perhaps there is a correlation between how long one is a GA/apostle, the 10,000 hour rule, and the changing of the brain’s actual development. Maybe it takes 10,000 hours to go from “normal brain” to “prophet brain.”