Historic Mormon Conundrums – one sentence thoughts.

This is like one of those facebook lists:

Blacks. Bigoted humans

Polygamy. Confusion over sealing ordinance (JS) + sexism and isolation (BY). But jury’s still out for me.

The means of translating the BOM. Strange process, but JS clearly believed it. Else, what was in the box?

The 3 witnesses. Spiritual witness is okay with me. I love OC.

The 8 witnesses. Like a family reunion.

The Pearl of Great Price (that’s a BIG one). Book of Moses works for me. Facsimiles = debunked wishful thinking; astronomy section of Abraham = incomprehensible.

Brigham Young. Not a fan, although I see how he accomplished a difficult task.

The Blood Doctrine. Ignorance + isolation = scary people.

DNA evidence not aligned with BOM. I don’t believe in a global theory anyway, so it’s unfalsifiable IMO.

re-baptism. ?

Homosexuals. The church needs to be above reproach on compassion. As to legal issues, let the people and/or the courts decide.

Masonry similarities to the Temple. Clearly Masonic influence; JS used their symbols to express Christian covenants in a new way.

The fact that prophets no longer testify of actually talking/seeing/speaking with God. I don’t know that they ever said things like that openly. JS never “testified” of First Vision; it was recorded much much later.

Adam-God Theory. Who knows, who cares? I’m not sold on this one.

Mountain Meadows. BY allowed it; he could pretty much do whatever he wanted.

Secret Tunnels. Under the temple? I thought for security.

Dannites. See Blood Doctrine.

Lafferty Brothers. See Blood Doctrine.

White Salamander. Believers are always prone to wishful thinking.

The Wave Stone. ?

The Sword of Laban. Nephi cutting off head of Laban is troubling. Or did you mean, where is it?

Mummies. ?

Parchment. ?

Dolemite. ? The blaxploitation film?

Zelf. “Zelph” seems like wishful thinking on the part of JS and early members.

Cain. Seems like literalist believers seeking proof of their otherworldly view.

Three Nephites. See Cain.

John the Beloved. See Cain. Although, my mom swears she met him. Really.

Jackson County. Not appealing.

Destruction of The Nauvoo Expositor. Led to JS’s martyrdom. Done to hide polygamy. He was probably doomed either way.

Kirtland Financial Crisis. Would you trust any of these guys with your money? They were hardly bankers, and some literally took the money and ran.

Spiritual Eyes vs. Actual Vision. We’re talking about spiritual stuff; I think visions are like that.

Different Accounts of the First Vision. Not a biggie for me. I’m not sure I think it was a visit vs. a vision anyway.

The “real” origin of The Word of Wisdom. Certainly “not by way of commandment,” now more of a cultural marker.

Quakers on the Moon. BY sounded like a raving loony; obviously, he wasn’t more educated than others of his era.

The lost 116 pages. MH’s wife was very hostile. Not very smart to give them to MH.

Solomon Spaulding. Not very convincing theory.

Philastus Hurlbut. Clearly biased.

[Moderator Note:]This thread is fine as long as it pretty much stays to the format of one-sentence answers. Individual topics should be a separate thread if someone wants to talk about them in detail. Otherwise, this will turn into a big mess.

Tom – I really liked this:

Quote:

The 3 witnesses Whitmer and Cowdery compel me to take pause.

The 8 witnesses Could Joseph Smith have been THAT charismatic?

Blacks —

What a tragedy of the mores of the day.

Polygamy —

true principle. But if a spaghetti noodle is ‘true’, it still doesn’t make a good arrow.

The means of translating the BOM —

beyond any worldly description, but nevertheless real.

The 3 witnesses —

divine (or, spiritual) witness

The 8 witnesses —

worldly (or, physical) witness

The Pearl of Great Price (that’s a BIG one) —

revelation by any other name is still revelation.

Brigham Young —

Good man who built the institution of the Church as he should have (mostly). Not like Joseph, & he knew it.

The Blood Doctrine —

One man’s interpretation. Limited by worldview.

DNA evidence not aligned with BOM —

DNA is indeed alligned but we (past AND present) assume too much, on both sides.

re-baptism —

good idea for some. Not needed for most.

Homosexuals —

Chastity applies to everyone. Not everyone has the same trials in life. Hell of a trial. Worse than being born w/o legs? Maybe.

Masonry similarities to the Temple —

Cool and reasonable. Again, too many people assume too much.

The fact that prophets no longer testify of actually talking/seeing/speaking with God —

wearing spiritual experiences on our sleeves is not the LDS way. Anymore.

Adam-God Theory —

true but only within a VERY limited kabbalistic context. Adam Kadmon is what Joseph was referring to.

Mountain Meadows —

tragic result of high emotions and mass hysteria. Haight should’ve been executed.

Secret Tunnels —

been in them. watch out for fast-moving electric carts. GA’s, Tab Choir, etc. use for egress and ingress.

Dannites —

Stupid, stupid man. Not approved by Joseph except through silence. Stupid on them both.

Lafferty Brothers —

balance in all things. Covenants ARE important. So is Love.

White Salamander —

Magic truly had a role in the life of Joseph. It’s ok. I’m learning to make it a small part of my life.

The Wave Stone —

Never heard of it. That’s amazing to me. So…. ????? Somebody spill the beans!

The Sword of Laban —

handle, blade… Maybe it survived, i dunno.

Mummies —

don’t breathe deeply around them.

Parchment —

lots of ’em of varying sizes & descriptions, at first. We probably have less than 10% of what they originally had.

Dolemite —

Joseph as a pimp? I don’t think so.

Zelf —

Interesting. Maybe fluff, maybe not. Puzzling. He and the next four dudes may be literal or not.

Cain —

he’s dead.

Three Nephites —

they’re not dead.

John the Beloved —

not dead. Almost certainly literal.

Jackson County —

political mire. Yech. Saints were too elitist and it messed up everything, Kirtland, here and Nauvoo.

Destruction of The Nauvoo Expositor —

bad idea. I could see where JS felt it was a practical solution to a bad situation.

Kirtland Financial Crisis —

The economy and greedy people screwed JS & the Church. JS probably shouldn’t have pressed the “anti-bank” issue of currency.

Spiritual Eyes vs. Actual Vision —

same difference. both real enough. “it’s all in your head” is a cop out.

Different Accounts of the First Vision —

blind gurus & the elephant. Good stuff, more views the better.

The “real” origin of The Word of Wisdom —

?? A p.o.’d wife? Wherever it came from, it’s good advice.

Quakers on the Moon —

19th century world-view. it happens.

The lost 116 pages —

real. bummer.

Solomon Spaulding —

dude doesn’t deserve all the notoriety he’s gotten over the years.

Philastus Hurlbut —

unhappy dude that never turned the corner into happiness.

HiJolly

This is cool! – Here goes, might be my last post after some of the answers….

Blacks – Not sure things have changed enough, still in progress.

Polygamy – Works for me wish we did it.

The means of translating the BOM – Gift and power of God, no more or less.

The 3 witnesses – Not surprised, who else would Satan target?

The 8 witnesses – Ditto.

The Pearl of Great Price (that’s a BIG one) – It is what it says it is.

Brigham Young – A real Prophet, saved the church.

The Blood Doctrine – Not sure this ever really gelled so I don’t know if it is/was a doctrine anyway.

DNA evidence not aligned with BOM – Give me studies that don’t have an axe to grind…..

re-baptism – Tragic that we don’t do it more often, should be allowed.

Homosexuals – ALL have sinned and fallen short, should be dealt with like any other chronically sinful behavior, like mine…

Masonry similarities to the Temple – Masonry is the counterfeit.

The fact that prophets no longer testify of actually talking/seeing/speaking with God – I don’t think God feels like talking to us as much as he used to

Adam-God Theory – Theory – this is one of the truest things ever taught, why the fuss?

Mountain Meadows – Be grateful we have modern communication.

Secret Tunnels – Must be really secret as I never heard of them.

Dannites – JS made a mistake ignoring this Praetorian Guard, they might have killed HIM eventually.

Lafferty Brothers – Natural born killers who found their rationale.

White Salamander – Do they exist in nature?

The Wave Stone – They’re always after me lucky charms….

The Sword of Laban – I am glad it is gone as it would have ended up over some rich Zoramite’s fireplace in SLC.

Mummies – The GA’s do the best they can to look young on TV 😳

Parchment – I think we mean papyrus?

Dolemite – Hate the game, not the Playah.

Zelf – Alf’s father.

Cain – The epitome of the natural man.

Three Nephites – Hope I get to see them.

John the Beloved – Ditto.

Jackson County – Beatuiful Zion, built above….

Destruction of The Nauvoo Expositor – If it wasn’t that it would have been something else, too cowardly to put a bullet in the Prophet, so….

Kirtland Financial Crisis – The Church needs to re-examine this as part of a real reckoning of how we get and use money, how beholden we are to our enemies, and how deep in Babylon’s pocket we might have sunk.

Spiritual Eyes vs. Actual Vision – Hard to tell the difference – 2 Corinthians 12:2

Different Accounts of the First Vision – Like the facets on a diamond.

The “real” origin of The Word of Wisdom – No revelation is an answer looking for a question.

Quakers on the Moon – I have a testimony that things like this and Zelph were Joseph’ tongue-in-cheek sense of humor at work.

The lost 116 pages – “Now that’s a fire!”

Solomon Spaulding – I prefer JF Cooper.

Philastus Hurlbut – Doctor was his real first name, a great way to save money on grad school.

Blacks — The whole point of the gospel is inclusion of everyone, so the only reason leaders denied priesthood ordination to people on the basis of race was their own bigotry; prejudice is a rejection of the 2nd great commandment of the gospel (“love your neighbor”) and that hardness of heart cuts church members and leaders off from the spirit of inspiration and revelation.

Polygamy — An unfortunate practice introduced by Joseph Smith that Brigham Young successfully exploited as a means of tying followers to him by sharing in something that was criminal activity, and which then became intimately interwoven with their family lives.

The means of translating the BOM — Inspired story-telling, primarily a collaboration between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, which probably only rarely involved physical avatars such as seer-stones, hats, and the “plates” object.

The 3 witnesses — Faithful Mormons, already converted to Joseph Smith, who saw a vision in their minds, the same way you or I see visions or dreams when we close our eyes and conjure images.

The 8 witnesses — Other members of the Smith and Whitmer families who signed a common document stating that they had seen the “plates” object (under a cloth), hefted the plates object (nailed within a box), and seen the curious “Caracters” said to be transcribed from the plates in the form of a transcript — either the transcript owned by the Community of Christ, or one like it.

The Pearl of Great Price (that’s a BIG one) — A book created by the LDS Church in the late 19th Century, containing the Joseph Smith History (a later and less accurate account of the first vision), the “Book of Moses” (part of Joseph’s inventive gloss/alteration of the Bible), and the Book of Abraham (Joseph’s inventive creation after acquiring the Chandler Mummies and papyri).

Brigham Young — One of the most ambitious and successful Mormons ever, his personality is best understood as a usurper who unsuccessfully tried to leave his own family dynasty in charge of the LDS Church; despite his reputation, he was not a great organizer, but he was successful because he was willing to break any number of eggs to make an omelet.

The Blood Doctrine — Although Mormons believed they were special blood descendants of Israel (primarily through Ephraim), this is not literally true; nor is imagining that people need to shed blood to atone for sins helpful in any way.

DNA evidence not aligned with BOM — Scripture is not history and history is not scripture: The Book of Mormon, like the Book of Job, and the Book of Genesis, among others, is not related in any way to actual historical events.

re-baptism — This was a ceremony that Mormons used to do; there’s nothing wrong with it and I don’t see why it couldn’t be reinstituted.

Homosexuals — Homosexuality is as eternal and Godly as heterosexuality and gender; the only true sin associated with homosexuality is bigotry against homosexuals.

Masonry similarities to the Temple — The Nauvoo endowment (and the current LDS redaction of the same) were directly derived from Masonry.

The fact that prophets no longer testify of actually talking/seeing/speaking with God — Worshiping leaders the way most Mormons do violates the gospel’s first great commandment (“love God” / have no gods before me). Leaders do not and have never talked to God in a way that is different from the way you or I can today.

Adam-God Theory — This was theological speculation, the same way that the King Follett Discourse and the Trinity are theological speculation. God is not like your dad or your brother or a dove or a ghost or Adam — these are all just models that people use to imagine God, since people can’t picture infinity.

Mountain Meadows — This is a stark, but not isolated, example of what happens when you surrender your culture to theo-dictatorship. It is systems of checks and balances on human authority that are divinely ordained, not dictatorships.

Secret Tunnels — There’s nothing wrong with tunnels.

Danites — Created with the sanction of Joseph Smith to drive free-thinking Mormons like Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer out of Far West, Missouri; precisely paralleling the way the Missourians later drove the Mormons out of their state.

Lafferty Brothers — There are crazy people like the Lafferty brothers in all cultures.

White Salamander — A clever forgery which highlights the fact that LDS leaders are fallible and possess no insights more special than yours or mine.

The Sword of Laban — An image from the mind of Joseph Smith, possibly (speculatively) derived from the leg surgery he had as a boy.

Mummies/Parchment — The source of the inspiration that became the Book of Abraham, the Chandler mummies and papyri had nothing to do with Abraham, who is largely a mythical figure.

Zelf — Early Mormons saw the world around them as scriptural and were inspired to see evidence of scripture all around them; none of these ideas nor the scriptures themselves should be taken literally today.

Cain — a literary creation of the Yahwist / J-Source, originally having nothing to do with skin color, which in modern times was used by Americans (including Mormons) to justify African slavery and racism.

Three Nephites — Fun folklore like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

John the Beloved — Traditionally one of Jesus’s core disciples; New Testament books ascribed to him were not written by him. Both the Gospel and the Apocalypse of John (Revelation) are late pseudepigrapha that tell us almost nothing about the historical Jesus.

Jackson County — Zion, in a symbolic sense. I’m here right now.

Destruction of The Nauvoo Expositor — A clear example of how power currupts all humans, which is why God does not ordain unchecked authority (theo-dictatorship), but instead supports as system of checks and balances where all the members receive personal revelation (true theo-democracy).

Kirtland Financial Crisis — Joseph Smith didn’t understand banking or business of any kind, and his business ventures routinely failed; the mistake was his, but his greatest personal flaw was incapacity to take responsibility for his actions.

Spiritual Eyes vs. Actual Vision — No one has ever seen science-fiction-like apparitions; all visions are seen with spiritual eyes. If we imagine that people in the past saw things we don’t see now, we are cutting ourselves off from our own spiritual existence.

Different Accounts of the First Vision — The first account is the best; as with all visions, this was a visionary experience, not a visitation. Many people have had similar, moving, theophanies, and you can too.

The “real” origin of The Word of Wisdom — The Word of Wisdom is simple 19th-century health folklore.

Quakers on the Moon — Brigham Young’s speculation is based on the old philosophical idea that there are no vacuums, and so all earth-like spheres would be filled with people.

The lost 116 pages — The lost earlier version of the Book of Mormon up to the Book of Mosiah; the official explanation helps illustrate that the Book of Mormon was a creative composition (that could not be duplicated), rather than a literal translation (which could be duplicated).

Solomon Spaulding — One of many, many authors in the 18th and 19th century who believed that a high civilization (cf. the “Mound-Builder” myth) had once existed in North America that had Old World origins; despite the beliefs of many to the contrary, the Book of Mormon is not based on any of Spaulding’s works.

Philastus Hurlbut — The cousin of my great great great great grandfather; without the affidavits he collected, we wouldn’t know nearly as much about Joseph Smith’s early life.

Blacks – love ’em, I even offered one sunscreen in my naivete – the epitomy of equality in my mind.

Polygamy – don’t believe it came from God – and lying for the Lord It demonstrates Joseph’s philosopher king mentality better than anything. Why people can’t see this I don’t understand.

The means of translating the BOM – why can’t we just be honest about it?

The 3 witnesses – honestly, these were not reliable people, and besides they left the church citing Joseph was a fallen prophet. how come we put so much emphasis on their testimony but not on their testimony of Joseph as a fallen prophet?

The 8 witnesses – eh, James Strang had lots of these.

The Pearl of Great Price (that’s a BIG one) – fabrication, but a very elegant one.

Brigham Young – WOW, just WOW, and did I mention wow!! I pretty much don’t believe anything that came out of his mouth.

The Blood Doctrine – (blood atonement) – philosophies of men mingled with scripture, and cruel to boot.

DNA evidence not aligned with BOM – didn’t expect it to since the BoM is simply not a historical record.

re-baptism – Nephi was, has to do with organization of the church or something.

Homosexuals – we have a long way to go on this one. this is purtian holdover, but not part of God’s church IMHO. EDIT: hmmm, I realized I wasn’t clear here. What I mean is that our attitudes towards homosexuals should not be part of God’s church. I agree with the post above that the only sin about homosexuality is the sin that virtually all of Christendom commits – bigotry towards them.

Masonry similarities to the Temple – cult mind control mechanism perfectly executed by Joseph and Brigham but a little too much for late 20th century people (that’s why they had to change it a bunch).

The fact that prophets no longer testify of actually talking/seeing/speaking with God – this is largely cultural, but it makes me crazy when I hear leaders say their experiences are too “sacred” to share. Isn’t that the point of a witness of Christ to testify of Him and reaffirm Him?

Adam-God Theory – philosophy of men probably NOT mingled with scripture

Mountain Meadows – complete atrocity and the church should apologize but they never will

Secret Tunnels – ?

Dannites – Wow, talk about secret combinations!

Lafferty Brothers – ?

White Salamander – The Tanners told us the letters were false!!

The Wave Stone – ?

The Sword of Laban – eh, myth

Mummies – ?

Parchment – ?

Dolemite – ?

Zelf – Man Joseph could really spin a tale when he needed to. Look for this great feature of Joseph’s character in other episodes such as Gold Plates, Priesthood, First Vision, etc.

Cain – no opinion

Three Nephites – uh huh

John the Beloved – whatever

Jackson County – Well, while I can’t condone the behavior or conspiring evil men to kill Mormons, it’s not like Joseph didn’t do anything to aggravate them.

Destruction of The Nauvoo Expositor – while in today’s society this would be unpardonable, in Joseph’s time it was probably not as critical from a Constitution point of view. But it was a stupid move in any case.

Kirtland Financial Crisis – Joseph, Joseph, Joseph, what were you thinking.

Spiritual Eyes vs. Actual Vision – psychology is simply fascinating, but it is not reality. Spiritual experiences are great, but they are just that – experiences. Not to be taken literally.

Different Accounts of the First Vision – I don’t buy into the notion of “different purposes” nonsense. I think it more likely Joseph could spin a tale!!

The “real” origin of The Word of Wisdom – ? ooh I need to look into this

Quakers on the Moon – oh brother, when will religions learn to stick with the untestable hypotheses. If you go up against science you will undoubtedly lose. Science 1,000,000,001 – Religion 0

The lost 116 pages – this is indeed convenient

Solomon Spaulding – I dunno about this one. The theory is interesting and helps explain the story much more plausibly but there is little evidence for it.

Philastus Hurlbut – not very reliable in my opinion

Incidentally I would have liked to see a few more things on the list.

1. Book of Mormon changes

2. Doctrince and Covenants changes

3. Priesthood restoration

4. theocracy