Home Page Forums History and Doctrine Discussions Modern Prophets: What’s the Point?

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  • #203890
    Anonymous
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    Okay, so here’s a question I’ve been thinking about lately.

    I have some problems with some statements made by General Authorities–both current statements/positions and historical statements/positions. You know some of the most common concerns: race, gender, sexuality, political activity, etc. Personally, my biggest concern relates to our teaching re: the doctrine of salvation by grace, but that is a different thread entirely.

    In any event, I realize it’s unrealistic to expect them to be 100% right, 100% of the time. The infallibility of prophets is NOT something we teach. And much of the time (I was going to say “most,” but my concern about our approach to salvation permeates a lot of what we say/do in the church), I am in agreement with them.

    But there areas where I think they are just wrong. It feels disloyal to say this, but through study, and prayer, and personal experience, I think there are areas where they are off-base!

    And so there reaches a time when you’ve got to ask the question: what the heck is the point?

    I know that nobody’s perfect and to expect that from anyone is unrealistic…but given the emphasis their teachings receive in the church, I am very confused on this issue…why have them if they’re not reliable? What makes them any different from any other religious leader or thinker? If they really DON’T receive, through revelation, the pure, unadulterated truth…if they are just as susceptible to deception and/or incomplete understanding as the rest of us…why do we go around patting ourselves on the back and saying we’ve got direct access to the “spokesmen for God on the earth”?

    I mean, are they or aren’t they His mouthpieces? Do they or do they not speak for God? If they do, why do I feel like God teaches me things that contradict what they say? And if they don’t…why do we even have them in the first place?

    #215802
    Anonymous
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    Katie, there was a very good discussion on Feminist Mormon Housewives earlier this month on exactly this topic. The url is:

    http://www.feministmormonhousewives.org/?p=2311

    I recommend the entire thread, but I am going to copy one comment that I thought was particularly profound – with the bolding being mine:

    Quote:


    OK. Here’s how I understand it. The prophet receives guidance and revelation for the whole of the Church. There is a reason that we call them General Authorities. They give general counsel to the general population of the Church. This keeps the Church as a whole on track, and ensures that we stay unified on the macro level, and there are probably a lot of other good reasons for it including some I could name if my head weren’t so foggy at the moment. Personal revelation is just that – it’s personal. It’s revelation for you, just you, only you, and occasionally the people for whom you are responsible, like your children (or your ward if you’re a Bishop, or you’re Relief Society if you’re the RSP, etc.). So when the prophet comes out with his general revelation, it is your job to correlate that with personal revelation. Different kinds of revelation. Everyone should have both, and one cannot take the place of the other.

    So, say you have a personal revelation that you shouldn’t consume any more coffee, tea, or alcohol. That’s great and you should follow it; however, it doesn’t apply to anyone except for you until the prophet comes out and says the same thing. Then everyone makes an honest attempt to reconcile the prophet’s words through prayer. They are then accountable for following that revelation. In most cases, they would never have had the opportunity to even receive that revelation had the prophet not had it for them. But let’s say the prophet comes out and says, oh, that everyone should support this amendment that prohibits same-sex marriage in California (for one totally random example). You then seek out personal revelation, and you feel that you should not do that. It doesn’t apply to your life. You are off the hook. Note that in this example the GAs specifically said that every member had to pray and follow their own consciences. You did, so you’re fine.

    It’s nuanced, and in the religious context for some reason that makes it troubling, but that’s how I understand it. I think we tend to have a naive view of religion, expecting it to provide us with the kind of absolutes that we know full well don’t exist anywhere else. I do believe that the Lord takes His sense of order very, very seriously, though I don’t really get why, and for that reason church-wide “macro” revelations must come through a prophet. Individual application of those revelations, though, come through more individual means.

    I won’t add anything to that for now, except that I really like the idea of the prophets and apostles keeping the Church on the right “general” course, with the members doing the steering through the rapids in their own lives. Taking over the paddles in our own rapids with only general counsel from others is scary, but it’s where the real growth occurs, imo.

    #215803
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Here are some things that I think can get tricky because communication is a two-way street (in the case of revelation, between a fallible human and infallible God):

    1 – fallible human can’t even fathom to ask a certain question (because it’s self-evident in their mind), so can’t receive revelation on that topic. Support for this theory: JS’s description of “Do you really want to ask that question?” when he asked about plural wives. Totally speculative example: Women are not allowed to officiate in priesthood ordinances outside the temple although they used to perform healing blessings in JS’s day. A fallible human who has a very patriarchal view is never going to ask for clarification on this matter.

    2 – fallible human can’t quite grasp what infallible God is saying and gets the message mixed up a bit. Totally speculative example: JS seemed confused about the sealing ordinances and did several off-the-wall things as he tried to figure out what he was supposed to do.

    3 – fallible human gets the message from God, but uses fallible human explanation to justify and embellish it. Totally speculative example: the current interview regarding same-sex marriage on lds.org that explains the church’s position seems to contain some human justifications (some better than others) for the answer the brethren received from God. Maybe an even better example is the folk doctrines brought in from Protestantism about the reasons why blacks couldn’t receive the priesthood.

    Of course, I don’t really know; it’s all just speculation. And it’s just as likely that I’m off track (since I’m also a fallible human).

    #215804
    Anonymous
    Guest

    katielangston wrote:

    I mean, are they or aren’t they His mouthpieces? Do they or do they not speak for God? If they do, why do I feel like God teaches me things that contradict what they say? And if they don’t…why do we even have them in the first place?

    This is a great question. Here is how I deal with it, because I don’t see consistency over time AND I sometimes disagree. Most of the time, I don’t have a problem with the things leaders say … well … most of the time :)

    Prophets, Apostles and General Authorities have a role to govern the church. I don’t really have a problem with that. They have to make the calls. I think it has to be a tough job. They are just doing the best they can, which in the great balancing act can’t possibly be perfect for everyone. I can’t get my kids to agree on a TV show to watch, let alone please 13 million members of a church. So I cut them some slack in that regard.

    As for doctrine and theological guidance, I try to see them more as a source for ideas and inspiration. I don’t mean *the* source, but *a* source. In that regard, they are a mouthpiece for God. They are older and (hopefully) wise. But again, they are giving THEIR interpretation of inspiration (which makes it 1 layer removed from me), and it is directed at a very large body of people (which may not fit my particular circumstances). I am the one who has to decide how I want to use their guidance in my life, if I choose to use it at all.

    What I see from the 30,000 foot perspective is inspired but flawed humans trying to pass along ideas that push the limits of our understanding. It gets better and more in-focus over time as we figure out what wasn’t right, and what worked good. We change, society changes, the Church changes. We are all headed in a good direction, but it is a messy road. It means we are wrong at times, and so are leaders. I don’t think God judges us poorly when we are doing the best we can with what we have.

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