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I know this is off-mission for this forum, but does anybody know where John Hamer hangs out online these days? Tom Haws
He still writes articles at By Comment Consent http://bycommonconsent.com/author/johnhamer/ I want to say he pops in at New Order Mormon now and then. I forget the name he uses. I may be connecting the dots wrong, but I think the avatar is him standing in a room, with long hair, holding open a book of mormon in one hand, and with a glass of red wine in the other hand. Like I said, I might have that NOM-person mixed up with John Hammer in my head.
Yeah. That’s John. He always uses his real name, that I have known. I will try Common Consent. Thanks. Hey Tom, I saw your messages on BCC, Facebook, and now here. What’s up?
Valoel wrote:I want to say he pops in at New Order Mormon now and then. I forget the name he uses. I may be connecting the dots wrong, but I think the avatar is him standing in a room, with long hair, holding open a book of mormon in one hand, and with a glass of red wine in the other hand. Like I said, I might have that NOM-person mixed up with John Hammer in my head.
It’s a triple combination. Actually I was preaching out of the Book of Abraham in that picture. Just one “m” in Hamer.
Hi, John. It’s good to see you again. Like I said, this is a bit off-mission, but I have some LDS/CofC friends who were wondering about a comparison list Steve Shields published in the 90’s. I took the
comparison herehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Hawstom/LDSvsCofC It’s nowhere near polished, but maybe it’s less offensive to our sisters and brothers in both “camps”.
Tom
John Hamer wrote:Interesting. It’s a little bit of a strange list. Your list works best for the common beliefs 2 Xs, but for the distinct 1 X beliefs, from the perspective of one church or the other, you sometimes give the positive version, sometimes the negative, and sometimes both.
Example:
BOTH VERSIONS
Priesthood ordination has never been denied to persons because of race or color. X — CofC
The church denied priesthood to blacks for a period. X — LDS (1852 to 1978)
LDS POSITIVE ONLY
The canon of scripture is not usually added to. X — LDS
In this case, the CofC Positive would be:
Every Prophet-President of the church has produced revelations that have been added to the D&C. X — CofC
CofC POSITIVE ONLY
Women are ordained. X — CofC since. Nov. 1995 (By the way, this should read 1984, not 1995.)
In this case, there should be an LDS Positive like:
Priesthood is conferred upon worthy males only. Women are understood to have a separate eternal role as mothers and care-givers [or however LDS people justify this policy]. X — LDS
* * *
All in all, I think the Xs format isn’t the best — I presume you’re modelling this on an old chart by Steve Shields — unless you want to include columns other Latter Day Saint churches (e.g., independent fundamentalist Mormons, FLDS, Strangites, Bickertonites, Hedrickites) and possibly a column for mainline protestants. If you’re just doing a straight on comparison, you might introduce topic, list common beliefs, list distinct beliefs.
For example:
TEMPLES
Both the LDS Church and the Community of Christ own and operate temples, a practive derived ultimately from temple in Jerusalem, which has a prominent place in both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible. For both churches, the temple is an extraordinarily sacred space where humans can commune with their God.
The Community of Christ operates two temples, one in Kirtland, Ohio, and one in Independence, Missouri. The underlying purpose of both stem from a revelation given to Joseph Smith Jr., calling upon the faithful to build a house of the Lord for worship, education, ministry, and church education. The Kirtland Temple was the headquarters of the early church from 1836-37, and the Independence Temple has been the headquarters of the Community of Christ since its dedication in 1994. The Independence Temple also includes ministerial and educational facilities, including the church’s Library-Archives. Both temples are open to all visitors, member and non-member alike. A revelation given to Wallace B. Smith in 1984 specified that the Independence Temple would be dedicated to peace and a special prayer for peace is conducted in the temple sanctuary daily (a prayer for peace is likewise held daily at the Kirtland Temple’s spiritual formation center). The Community of Christ recognizes that a special “endowment” (or blessing) was poured out among the early Saints in 1830s, but does not recognize or employ ceremonial “endowments” developed in Nauvoo in the 1840s. The Community of Christ likewise does not baptize for the dead and marriages are not performed in either temple.
The LDS Church operates over a hundred temples, including the Salt Lake City, Utah, Temple and a rebuilt temple in Nauvoo, Illinois. The fundamental purpose of the temples is “temple work” — sacred ceremonial experiences that members do not discuss with outsiders. These ceremonies include baptism for the dead, endowments for the living and the dead, and marriage “sealings” for “time and all eternity.” Members believe these ordinances are essential to exaltation — achieving the highest degrees of glory in the afterlife. Because of their sacredness, the temples are closed to all save worthy members who have received a “recommend” from their presiding priesthood authority. LDS members believe that the Salt Lake City Temple was built in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies. Although the headquarters of the LDS Church is part the greater Temple Square complex in Salt Lake City, the temple itself is not used for administrative, ministerial, or educational purposes. LDS temples are not dedicated to peace and do not perform daily prayers for peace.
See what you think.
John
One problem I have with the logic of the list as is stands (simply a concept of course) is that there is a mixture of fact and belief in the snippets. A lot of the snippets implicitly apparently assume that the reader will take them as “beliefs” others, however, appear to be presented as “facts”. The line is blurry and it should be sharp, as our Wikipedia experience taught us.
This is good experience for me. A good brush-up on NPOV is a good thing.
On the topic of plural marriage, I think we can separate facts from beliefs without too much trouble. This was my proposed language: PLURAL MARRIAGE (POLYGAMY)
Neither the LDS Church nor the Community of Christ currently sanction polygamous marriages. Among converts from cultures that practice polygamy, the Community of Christ recognizes existing polygamous marriages, provided that converts take no additional wives. By contrast, the LDS Church will not baptize persons actively practicing polygamy. In the early church, Joseph Smith Jr. consistently denounced polygamy in his public discourses, but historians have concluded that he introduced the practice privately among a core group of his followers in Nauvoo, Illinois.
The Community of Christ was re-organized by opponents of the practice of polygamy, including Emma Smith, the legal wife of Joseph Smith Jr. and her son Joseph Smith III. Emma continued her husband’s policy of denying polygamy publicly. Joseph Smith III maintained that so long as the evidence was not 100% conclusive, it was possible to believe that his father was not involved. For many years, Community of Christ members believed that Brigham Young had originated polygamy as an article of faith, but the church’s historians began to correct this view in the 1970s and 1980s. Members today are encouraged to judge the historical sources for themselves. A prevalent view is that Joseph Smith Jr. introduced polygamy but realized it was a mistake in the last months of his life. This view is supported by testimony of early members, including William Marks, and modern analysis which shows that Joseph Jr. took no new wives in the last months of his life.
Leaders of the LDS Church in the late 1840s included proponents of the practice of polygamy in Nauvoo. After the death of Joseph Jr. in 1844, Brigham Young significantly broadened the practice to include a large proportion of the city’s adult population. From 1853–1890, the LDS Church publicly pronounced plural marriage as a doctrine essential to achieving the highest degree of exaltation in the afterlife. The LDS Church ceased to publicly sanction polygamy in 1890, it ceased to sanction private practice after 1904, and it began to excommunicate all persons engaging in new polygamous marriages in the 1920s. The LDS Church continues to believe plural marriages will exist in the afterlife. Among members, a widower can be “sealed” to a new wife, suggesting that he will be together with multiple wives in eternity.
Hey cool! Thanks for stopping by John. John Hamer wrote:It’s a triple combination. Actually I was preaching out of the Book of Abraham in that picture. Just one “m” in Hamer.
Sorry about spelling your name wrong. I like your NOM avatar. That is why it stuck in my mind.
Valoel wrote:Sorry about spelling your name wrong. I like your NOM avatar. That is why it stuck in my mind.
That’s no problem. That happens all the time and I don’t really care at all, but it does make a difference on Google searches. Great seeing you too. I like your posts on MormonMatters.
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