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In my journey in and out of the church, one of the things that I came to believe was that there was no entity such as Satan. While I am not an atheist, and simply do not claim to know whether there is a God, and/or what form he/she/it takes, the idea of Satan/the Devil/Lucifer no longer holds validity for me. I don’t think belief in God implies a belief in Satan. Satan does not have to exist for God to exist. That we humans are somehow trapped in a war between good and evil incarnate, just seems to me ridiculous and egoistical beyond belief. I don’t believe that humans need to look anywhere but at themselves to find the devil, if they are looking for him/her/it. But, and here’s the point, the idea of a Satan truly existing is central to the church. So I just wonder if any of you, in your journey, have come to the same or a different conclusion, and how you try to make it work for you in the church? Thanks, Curt
I certainly believe he exists. I had a dream/vision one night that an Angel of the Lord fought an angel of Satan over my soul. I believe the Angel of the Lord prevailed as I’m still here. This was 17 years ago, we lived in front of the Temple in Las Vegas, about a block away, we have never been in a Temple but we used to study on the lawn in front, just to be near the presence of the Lord. We were active in the Church but we were struggling mightily with serious Word of Wisdom problems, drugs, meth, cocaine, pot, alcohol, cigarettes. We loved our jobs in the Church library, we had a testimony of a blessing larger than we could contain for tithing, we believed in the Church and we had a Bishop in the ward who befriended us but we could not break the bonds of drug addiction/use. We had been running from ourselves for 10 years at this point and then we moved again and it got worse. Then one day I got a job offer far away to go to work for my adopted brother (who is not a member, we are the only members in our family) and the one rule was no white stuff but I really wanted the job so I took it. We’ve been clean from the devil’s white powder since then, about 13 years. The ironic thing is my brother is an atheist and he hates Mormons, he grew up in Idaho outside the Church and was shunned by 99% of the members, the enire population of his town, which is one of the reasons he is an atheist. I don’t hold it against him, I love him for doing the Lord’s work and getting me cleaned up. We still have Word of Wisdom problems but they are managable. “The biggest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn’t exist”, from the movie “Exit Wounds”
We still haven’t been inside a Temple but I hear the Spirit calling me to get sealed to my wife of 35 years, but that’s another thread,
I both believe and don’t believe in a “Satan.” On a mystical level (for lack of a better word), this entity exists because we believe it. Is it symbolic and a manifestation of something within us? I say yes. Is Satan also a real being? I say yes. Like Rodh, I also had a vision/dream experience a long time ago where I was out of my body near the house where I lived. I encountered a “being” that I immediately knew was Satan. It was frightening beyond belief, and I was catapulted back into my body when he turned around and noticed I was aware of him, and was startled into a waking state.
I don’t know that anyone has a full understanding of all the beings and entities (both good and bad) out there. Even with my personal experience, I still see Satan as both a real being and also as an extension of the battle that goes on inside my own soul. What we believe, in the realm of spirit, is real. That is an element of the power of “faith,” and part of the learning that goes on in our life in this physical kingdom.
I guess I see Satan as mostly irrelevant. We’re judged for what we do in this life. I have plenty of flaws of my own without blaming a Satan for my problems. Whether he exists or not, my life is still the same struggle. I do think Satan is a powerful archetype, though, for understanding our inner struggles. I hope I didn’t give the impression I was blaming Satan for my problems but rather that he is there waiting to take advantage of those who have given up hope or given up the battle between good and evil or those that choose the dark side for temporal personal gain. Rod
I’m not positive one way or the other whether Lucifer is an actual spiritual being, but I’m willing to accept his existence – especially in a situation like this mortal life where I believe most people need to believe in absolute good and absolute evil. My problem is the whole “the devil made my do it” cop-out. I have NO problem philosophically with a Satan who tempts; I have a HUGE problem with a Satan who causes. In fact, I think the only redeeming aspects of the story of Job are: 1) his refusal to blame God for troubles; 2) the prophecy of the reality and physicality of the resurrection; 3) the idea that God had to agree to loose Satan in order for Job to be affected directly by Satan. “The devil made me do it,” is the flip side of, “God predestined me” – and they both are abominable to me.
My favorite notion of Satan is from the movie Devil’s Advocate. I love how he plays to the vanity of the Keanu Reeves lawyer guy and goads him into taking the unwinnable case and winning, and then after it leads him down a terrible path, we see (SPOILER ALERT) that it was all just a decision, so he decides not to take the case, and immediately, Satan transforms into another guy who plays up to the lawyer’s vanity for not taking the case. It’s also kind of like how in the Screwtape Letters, Wormwood says that his nephew should rejoice that war has broken out – war is neutral. It can bring out good things or bad things in men. Rod, You say you had this experience but, far as I can tell, you never really described it. Please do so.
Curt
Or not, if you feel you shouldn’t. I don’t mean to override curt’s wishes at all; I just realize these things often are considered too personal to describe in detail. If you have no objection to giving more detail, I have no objection to you doing so; I just don’t want anyone to feel any pressure to do so.
I’m with Valoel on this. I do, and I don’t. Last year (or was it 2007?) there was a First Presidency message in the Ensign that stated “Satan is the source of all evil.” Well, I just don’t believe that AT ALL. I even had to confess it to my home teaching families as I gave the message. But I did explain, and it went over pretty well.
I do think that there is a Lucifer-type being, who is kinda the poster-child for bad choices. But the source of all evil to me is God, via the agency She/He insists upon within all manifestation.
HiJolly
Curt, I was trying to lay the groundwork for the situation as you don’t really know me. But the vision was simply a vision of two angels fighting over me, it was short and concise. Looking back all these years it would be hard to describe the beings, I guess human beings of light fighting with swords, I don’t recall any “wings” but they may have been on horses.
I was asleep in bed and woke up freaked out and relived at the same time. I knew something terrible, wonderful and important had happened.
I know you’re probably thinking I was on drugs but I wasn’t and my drugs of choice weren’t like that. I told only my wife for years because I knew that’s what my friends would say.
I’m not a very good communicator so I’d like to add a little more. I definitely got the feeling that the angel of darkness wanted to take me down to perdition but the Angel of the Lord wouldn’t let him because our Heavenly Father still saw some good in me, still saw a chance for me to come back to the fold no matter how long the road. I don’t necessarily mean back to the Church but back to having a one on one relationship with our Heavenly Father, if that’s where it leads then that’s fine with me. Before we were ever in the church we were taught that one of the reasons for the old testament and the story of ancient Israel was to get to know God. How will he act in certain situations, what is He like, will he keep his promises. How He treated the Israelites is how we can expect Him to treat us. It’s one way to get to know Him. It’s why I love sailing, I get plenty of one on one time with Him.
Thanks, rod, for sharing that. One more thing, by being “taken down to perdition” to me means to be cut off from the light of Christ, to have no conscious, to not care one wit about doing evil things, to be cut off from the Holy Spirit for all eternity. You’re welcome Ray!
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