I cant bring myself to do it…. (long post)

magicmusician, first, try not to beat yourself up over this. It’s not easy, and one of the core problems of mortality is that we tend to want things to be easy. “Life is pain, Highness.”

Second, one of the things that helped me find a way to frame how I view the Church’s early history was an epiphany I had years ago while reading the allegory of the Olive Tree in Jacob 5. Verses 64-66 talk about “the last time” the vineyard will be pruned, and they phrase it this way:

64 Wherefore, dig about them, and prune them, and dung them once more, for the last time, for the end draweth nigh. And if it be so that these last grafts shall grow, and bring forth the natural fruit, then shall ye prepare the way for them, that they may grow.

65 And as they begin to grow ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit, according to the strength of the good and the size thereof; and ye shall not clear away the bad thereof all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft, and the graft thereof shall perish, and I lose the trees of my vineyard.

66 For it grieveth me that I should lose the trees of my vineyard; wherefore ye shall clear away the bad according as the good shall grow, that the root and the top may be equal in strength, until the good shall overcome the bad, and the bad be hewn down and cast into the fire, that they cumber not the ground of my vineyard; and thus will I sweep away the bad out of my vineyard.

If you read these verses carefully, it is obvious that “The Church” will contain LOTS of bitter fruit that will need to be pruned and burned – and that this process will occur gradually so that the church can survive and continue to be pruned. That is incredibly profound, imo, because it says very clearly that “The Apostasy” (at the very least its effects) will live on in the Church after the Restoration – that there will be a lot of crap that has to be worked out before the Church is pure and presentable to God.

I look at the history of the Church, and I see quite clearly the effects or The Apostasy on the early members, on Joseph and Brigham and others. I see those effects still in the Church today – but I’m OK with them specifically because I can see how the Lord said it would be that way over 2000 years ago when Jacob had his vision.

I don’t have any practical advice, other than to pursue a spiritual relationship with God outside the Church, but the foundation of my ability to remain an active part of the Church consists of two things: 1) my spiritual experiences that are related directly to the Church; 2) my understanding of the PROCESS of restoration that I explained above. I don’t expect perfection, and I actually expect messiness, so I’m not crushed when I see imperfection and messiness.

I hope that helps somehow, but, most of all, no matter how, I hope you find a degree of peace – even if it requires stepping away from active involvement for a while until you find a way to create a peaceful foundation.

But if the leaders are weak – making their teachings weak- then it makes the whole thing weak

you know I LOVE the stuff about family

plan of slavation

and all that stuff

(tithing is an issue for me now because of everything else but thats another story)

but take away all those “bricks”

and i feel that I am left with a really rotten foundation built on sand

i am NOT trying to take away what anyone else beleives or thinks

i am just really frustrated right now

But if the leaders are weak – making their teachings weak- then it makes the whole thing weak

For some reason this brings tears to my eyes. Maybe it’s because I have just spent a year studying the Arbinger Institute books: The Peacegiver, Bonds that Make Us Free, The Anatomy of Peace, Leadership and Self-deception, The Choice, Angels Among Us, etc. There is something about the vision of the church as weak that awakens my compassion.

Thank you for using that word, Gabe. I needed it. If you need more about Arbinger, let me know.

Re: Blacks and the priesthood

Ecclesiastes 3

1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

it is possible to reconcile any issue – IF that is what you decide you want to do.

I believe this. I am an absolutist, I suppose. Absolutely always love. Absolutely always keep believing and hoping. Reconciliation of people is good: “Resist not evil”. But I just don’t know that reconciliation of harmful ideas is a good thing, if it involves any degree of compromising on Ray’s maxim.

There is no such thing as an academic issue. Everything is emotional to somebody.

May we never forget the pain of our 6 billion and our 12 million sisters and brothers. May we never become good old boys. May we never get secure in our reconciliations. May we stay sensitive and compassionate to the end.

Gabe,

I’m in an interesting position on this issue, because I still feel (post second conversion) that inwardly I am neither LDS nor Christian, but simply a Child of God. So I can answer about God and Heaven from a transcendent perspective. At the same time, I am a product of the LDS Church and committed to the LDS Church as a faith community.

The Gospel According to Tom

I guess I have to ask……would Lucifer’s alternate plan as we understand it really have been worse for most people? … the overwhelming majority of us will never do any better than Lucifer’s standardized beings would have done.

1. The near death experiences (including Storm’s quoted above) teach that life is a net gain. We great souls did not come into the world because agency and mortality and suffering are a bad idea. We came for growth and learning because we are (ALL of us) courageous. Suffering is not God’s fault; it’s the choice of all of us. “When you see it all from the eyes of God, it’s not a mess. It’s beautiful.”

2. Mortality drags some of us down to despair (hell), but God is a long suffering redeemer, who works His wondrous love to save us when we look to Him and live.

The LDS Gospel of Salvation

I love the LDS Gospel of Salvation.

it makes me wonder if the heaven we promise will get to enough people to make it worth the pain of the mortal experience. Basically, if mortality is a tribulation, and we planned for it to be that when there was a choice about the matter, there had better be an awfully nice pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and I don’t know that our doctrine actually promises that for most people.

1. In LDS religion, all the glories are a priceless reward. Supposedly Joseph Smith said if some people saw the telestial kingdom, they would kill themselves to get there. In LDS doctrine, ALL souls except the sons of perdition will be redeemed to heaven and inherit an unspeakable glory (Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial).

2. Lucifer’s plan was for zero growth. Lucifer’s standardized beings are mere worthless machines, fine for an evil scientist, but meaningless to a loving father. Agency, Free agency, Moral agency. Without it, we are not human, and without pain, and hard choices, what was the use of coming into the world? Lucifer’s plan was simply philosophically and logically empty all around. It’s only selling points were FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt).

I am passionate about this core issue, so forgive if I have said anything wrong.

I think the reconciliation is that ALL of us will be in a much better place than when we started. Even the worst performers, if works are even that important, end up so much better off through this process of earth experience, that it was all a worthwhile risk/reward ratio (like Gabe implied). That is the reconciliation I see.

Through my own personal interactions with the Spirit and trying to comprehend, I believe that everyone ends up in a position or place (call it a kingdom) where they want to be. Everyone has the results they want, and there is no time limit to get there (because time is an illusion). Everyone becomes eternally whole and complete in that sense, and they will “fill the measure of their creation” (whatever that ends up being).

The three-tiered system of Kingdoms ,in my opinion, is symbolic and a simplistic shadow of what we will move into after this life is done. It is “true” in a broad, general sense. It isn’t the whole story. That is my impression and my opinion. The three kingdoms are a simple metaphor that every person can understand and grasp, to help them move forward. That is why it is a public dogma in the Church — the one-size-fits-all answer to give for people that need an answer. People can refine it on their own through personal revelation, if so motivated.