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  • #203967
    Anonymous
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    I went through quite a cathartic experience this past week. I finally dove into some research into Polyandry which I became aware of about 2 years ago while watching the PBS/Frontline production about the Mormons. I was offended by what I heard and judged it to be wrong and could not let it go. I had to put my research into it on the shelf for 2 years because of some financial challenges that required all mt attention.

    I was born in the Church, went on a mission to Chile. married at 32 years old and have been active my entire marriage. I am also a Card Holder- but do not claim perfection in the least. I have always been open minded and try to afford others their opinions without having to agree with them. Well- the Polyandry thing just took it all too far and I condemned Joseph Smith for it as well as everything else I researched and found to be whacked. First Vision, Melchesidec Priesthood, Zelph, Banking Scandal, Mountian Meadows- the list is endless.

    After 3 days of certainty that the Church was not true and that Joseph was not he he said he was- I finally saw the Light. It was right in front of me the whole time. I won’t go into detail about how it all came to me but I will post what I wrote in my Journal after coming through it:

    Thoughts on Belief, Faith and Knowledge

    Consider the following if you will: 1) Is it possible that God teaches us by purposefully confusing us? Please search out examples in all scripture about this. Think about the story of Lot of the Old Testament. Genesis 19: 30-36. Can God move his purposes forward where transgression is present? Where sin has been committed? Does that make it wrong or just confusing? Is there a reason why God would make it confusing? No way!! But is it possible???

    2) Christ spoke in parables so that only the BELIEVERS would understand. In Luke 8:10 it reads: “And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.” Christ knew the hearts of the Pharisees and Sadducees- he knew that their hearts were uncircumcised and that they needed signs to BELIEVE. Belief is a choice in the face of a mountain of evidence to the contrary! Hebrews 11:1 reads, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” I would add that faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things NOT UNDERSTOOD or NOT LOGICAL or NOT KNOWN.

    3) Read in Mathew 15:22-38. Christ appeared to be “rude” to a Canaanite woman who sought that her daughter would be healed. He put her off but her faith was so great (belief, not knowledge or logic) that he relented and followed the spirit of the law. He was not sent to teach the Gentiles but made an exception for this black woman because of her FAITH. Paul and others were to spread the good Word to the Gentiles but Christ could not help himself. Why does Christ appear to be prejudiced against this black woman and other gentiles? It was a mission assigned to him by his Father to teach the Jews, and he did only the will of the Father. But he made some exceptions when the spirit dictated. I have read it somewhere by some “apostates” that some black saints were given the Priesthood by Joseph Smith in his time. They use that idea to convict him yet I BELIEVE that this information actually is supportive of him. Contradictions and paradoxes are actually a sign in a way that the Lord is doing his work. Because we cannot make sense of it at ALL!! We have to have a desire to believe in it first (even in the face of all evidence pointing to the contrary) and then he will open ours eyes and give us some Light on the subject. This Light is discernible which gives us some knowledge IN THAT THING- but we cannot conclude that everything is true and cast aside our faith…we still have many things yet to believe and gain knowledge about. But the prerequisite is that we believe. Many of us gained a witness that the BofM contains the word of God and the gospel of Christ and we WRONGLY assumed that everything else was true and set aside our faith!! We are allowed and expected to continue to have faith in all remaining principles of the gospel until we exercise it and gain Light and Knowledge about the remaining truths. We can have spiritual witnesses of Joseph Smith, the Great Flood, the Atonement (try to explain or logic that one!), Thomas Monson and many more if we desire it.

    4) Please read the following account in Mark 16: 9 Now when Jesus was arisen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. 10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept. 11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not. 12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. 13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them. 14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

    We are not supposed to understand it or agree with it or be able to logic through it. I personally believe that he throws a lot of curve balls to force us to BELIEVE against ALL reasons to the contrary. This is true faith for me. I know all the stuff about Church History- I just see it in a completely different light. My new sight came slowly and it started with a desire to believe or at least the desire to acknowledge that I did not KNOW with 100% certainty that it was NOT true. I never considered that NOT KNOWING was an option once I found something in the Church History that offended me enough. Once I found the stuff that was TRULY WRONG, IMMORAL or OFFENSIVE I made a DECISION that I would no longer believe that GOD could bring about his purposes through Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Lot of the Old Testament, and many other things. I can see how becoming an agnostic is a real possibility for many because many things cannot and never will be explainable. Many of us Christians who apostatized from Mormonism would not entertain the ideas or logic of atheism or agnosticism because it scared the hell out of us. The fact that we cannot prove God exists is of no consequence when you have decided to believe for your own personal witnesses and reasons. You can throw all kinds of reasons not to believe and we will remain firm. But I submit that if you have to have everything proven to you about Mormonism then you may follow logic down that same road. I am no longer afraid of that road because I do not expect to find the answers- that is not how the game of life was set up by our very humorous but loving Father in Heaven.

    Christ said in Matt. 21: 21 “Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.”

    This is part of what I feel has been given to me through this experience and it has given me hope, faith and a desire to gain additional spiritual witnesses to things that are unknowable to the natural man. Once I was able to forgive and not convict Joseph Smith for all his sins- I also was able to forgive myself and free myself from that cage of guilt and feelings of unworthiness that I have fought against for most of my life. I remain free which I felt when I both convicted Joseph Smith at the start of this and when I let it go and put it on the altar at the end of this. Boy does it feel good to be open to all things that lead us to Christ!!

    Have a great day and week.

    #216709
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Welcome, M3GD.

    There is a LOT that I could address in your post, but I REALLY like the following:

    Quote:

    Once I was able to forgive and not convict Joseph Smith for all his sins – I also was able to forgive myself and free myself from that cage of guilt and feelings of unworthiness that I have fought against for most of my life.

    It really is amazing what happens when someone develops a forgiving heart. It literally changes one’s vision and opens all kinds of vistas to one’s view. Thanks for sharing that.

    I hope you both gain from and contribute to our community here.

    #216710
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Thank you Ray. I like you already! And not just because you agreed with something I believe (okay, maybe that has something to do with it) :) Are all the folks here this nice? I look forward to learning from many of you and sharing personal insights.

    #216711
    Anonymous
    Guest

    My3GirlsDad wrote:

    Well- the Polyandry thing just took it all too far and I condemned Joseph Smith for it as well as everything else I researched and found to be whacked. First Vision, Melchesidec Priesthood, Zelph, Banking Scandal, Mountain Meadows- the list is endless.

    After 3 days of certainty that the Church was not true and that Joseph was not he he said he was- I finally saw the Light.

    Yes, everything you discovered was real. Joseph Smith was rotten just like the rest of us, and he perpetrated all those terrible things, and the fruits of his ministry were lacking in a certain sweetness. And the Church is not true as you had thought. But seeing the Light, ahh, that’s true; it’s better not to condemn him. There’s no particular reason to follow him. But following the Light, ahh, that is a proposition!

    Perhaps the Holy One never confuses us, but instead we all confuse each other and ourselves? Perhaps we all signed a disclaimer before coming into this world that we would not blame the Highest for any pain, confusion, or the false traditions of the fathers we chose. Perhaps Joseph Smith was an instrument in the hands of Heaven. And perhaps so is President Obama, Hugo Chavez, Vladimir Putin, the beggar at the off ramp, and your 3-year-old asking you to get off the computer.

    And perhaps we will glorify best the Righteous One in the end if we stay LDS.

    #216712
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote:

    Christ spoke in parables so that only the BELIEVERS would understand.

    This is a great point. While I don’t think that God deliberately tries to deceive people, I do think he wants us to have to work at it. Or maybe we just have to because we’re not that smart yet or that experienced. If you don’t develop a space for people to think, people won’t think. If you don’t develop some topics with which to wrestle, we get flabby and lazy. Too often people (especially some members) are used to the notion of having all the answers or having it all figured out (the Sunday School answers). We’re not supposed to have it all figured out. We’re supposed to struggle to understand it. We’re not supposed to have the answers; we’re supposed to learn how to ask better questions.

    I also think Tom is onto something important about JS. If his flaws were not so apparent (as some who like to cover them up tend to drive home), we would not worship Christ. We would start to look to this super-human (fictional) creation. Prophet worship is not good and certainly isn’t right. There is not a prophet out there whose sins are so miniscule that he didn’t require the atonement just like me. And we all have access to the gift of prophesy and the gifts of the spirit. We should stop creating a false hierarchy of human worship and let the hierarchy of the church be what it is: human beings with specific responsibilities and human failings devoted to a cause that is bigger than their abilities could ever be.

    #216713
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Beautifully stated Hawk…I love thinking about our leaders and prophets that way…

    #216714
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Hi M3GD, it sounds like you’ve obtained some valuable insights and wisdom.

    Welcome aboard!

    #216716
    Anonymous
    Guest

    It is beautiful to me to see the different ways people go about reconciling their faith while going through this process of becoming “spiritual adults.” I also felt that sense of not being free, of not being able to receive mercy for the Savior, if I hold onto the need to convict others for their flaws and faults. To be angry at another, or to accuse them and demand justice, is to demand that justice be applied to me. And I do not deserve the great gifts and grace from God that I have received.

    I don’t feel the right following everything that does not make sense, in an exploration of having faith in things I can never know. If that works for you, then I am very happy. You should follow the Spirit wherever it leads you.

    Welcome to the forums. I think you will have a lot of great things to share with our community.

    #216717
    Anonymous
    Guest

    My3GirlsDad:

    I enjoyed reading of your experience. It mimics my own. I did not come to this sort of realization until years after I resigning my membership. This is the path I am now working through.

    I see history as something that can be easily taken out of context. History is often written and the writer is able to make it say whatever they like, with whatever bent they desire. What we think to be “historically accurate” now may not be 10 years down the road. I personally find some LDS history/scripture to fit this model.

    Your comments on faith are refreshing to read. I wish I would have come to the conclusion a long time ago. I am considering going back to the LDS Church because of this thinking. It is difficult for me to understand why my life has taken the turns it has based on my prayers, fasting, research, reading, scripture study, and the like. It has been an extremely frustrating segment of my life. I’m tired. Very tired. I need some peace. I have been unable to find the desired peace…feeling like the seed thrown along the wayside.

    I keep thinking I will attend the Ward. I never go. Fear stops me. That sounds silly. What is there to make me afraid? I grew up in the church, served a mission, and held many callings. I think I fear being judged, still wondering if it is a mistake, wondering if the same things that prompted me to leave in the first place would make me do so again. I fear that this Bishop would be a particularly hard man making me have a long grueling road back. I know him to be a tough man to deal with. These are all silly but are in the back of my mind. LOL. All this coming from a person that does not fear much of anything else. It is hard to explain.

    #216715
    Anonymous
    Guest

    seedtender wrote:

    I keep thinking I will attend the Ward. I never go. Fear stops me. That sounds silly. What is there to make me afraid? I grew up in the church, served a mission, and held many callings. I think I fear being judged, still wondering if it is a mistake, wondering if the same things that prompted me to leave in the first place would make me do so again.


    I hear ya, seedtender. In your head you may say it is silly and you shouldn’t worry about what people think, but when you go and sit and look around, you just can’t help feeling what you feel. I have tried to accept my feelings and not try to think them away with a positive mental attitude or logic, my feelings are just what they are, and now I move ahead and I can try to change them with actions, but I can’t change them with thoughts.

    One thing I am trying to do is find a way to volunteer for small acts of service. Volunteer in Elders Quorum or High Priests Quorum, or visit my home teaching families (which I’m terrible at visiting) and some youth I see are missing.

    I feel I can read and study at home and get more spiritually fed in my own studies than at church classes, and I don’t get much socialization nor am looking for that in the ward on Sundays, what I really can’t get without the church are good opportunities to serve others and that always makes me feel better about myself and I think the church is a good source of opportunities to bring us together to serve others.

    One thought is to reduce the awkwardness of going back to church and seeing what others do when you show up, is to look for ways to get involved in the church and it seems to break the ice and make it easier. Just some thoughts to consider.

    #216718
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I just wanted to say that I am very impressed that you came to the conclusion.. and so quickly! I was in apostasy for like 2 months! I still don’t understand it all and am completly frustrated. However.. Do you really think that God would do that to us? I mean life is really hard as it is.. why try and confuse us more!

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