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I want to make a personal invitation to anyone who has experienced the “disillusionment” and feels like they can no longer honestly participate in the church — but is torn because they have family members firmly in the church, or maybe their personal sense of loss is distressing (or both) — to engage us in conversation, ask the hard questions, seek the “impossible” answers. Some of us have passed through that exact situation, we know how unfair and hopeless it appears. We have experienced the desire to be honest and open, and have known that impulse to “open the eyes” of the world and the church. We know the transformation that comes through this process of “awakening” and the accompanying desire for uncolored truth. This level of “disillusionment” cannot be reversed, nor do we think that it should be. We do feel however that there is a path back to activity in the church. A path paved with honesty and love. I know it seems unimaginable, I could not have imagined it myself just two years ago, but when absolutism gives way to understanding a new world of possibility begins to appear. Please feel free to ask any question, let’s talk about it. There are people who are honestly “in the church” who know what you know, and believe it or not they’re not in denial. They may not be so absolutist in their claims, but they do love and value their participation in the church – as imperfect as it may be.
Hope to hear from you.
It seems like I waver back and forth on a daily basis as to whether or not I can make it work (i.e. to keep going to church despite the fact that I really don’t believe any of it). Some days I feel as though I can do it, and other days it seems like too much of a double-life. I have a friend who was raised in the church who feels similar to me, but she is able to make it work for her family… I think the big difference is that she believes in Jesus Christ and that is what she focuses on. She is able to make everything about the saviour and disregard everything else about the church that bothers her. How I envy her!
In my case, I was raised an atheist/agnostic, and when I became disillusioned with the church a few years ago, I fell quickly back into that way of thinking (not sure if I ever really left that way of thinking, though I certainly tried). It is interesting to me that being a member of the church for over 16 years, I never developed any sort of deeper understanding of or real relationship with Jesus Christ. The elusive “testimony” that I struggled in vain to acquire for at least 10 of those years, was more focused on feeling/believing that the LDS church itself was “true” (I am cringing as I type that last word). When I finally gave up desperately trying to find that testimony (I figured that somewhere in that 10 years of devoted prayer and scripture study I would have felt SOMETHING if I was meant too, and I never did… the heavens were frighteningly silent to me), it was as though there was nothing left. I have read of many other people who become disillusioned with the LDS church, but still have a deeply rooted faith in Jesus Christ, so they are able to either stay active, or find a different church that better meets their needs. I, on the other hand, feel as though there is nothing left for me. I go to church for the sake of my TBM husband and my kids, but I feel so empty and lonely there.
On top of it all, even before I became disillusioned with the church, I had serious baggage where the temple is concerned. Since my parents are not members, and I am their only daughter, you can imagine how difficult that time was for me. It is still an open wound as I think of it now. Due to the enormous heartache my temple wedding created for my parents and myself, I have never been able to think of the temple without getting a pit in my stomach. I can remember one heated phone conversation between myself and my wonderful mother back during my engagement when she told me through her enormous hurt that “Your family will never forgive you for this.” In reality, all these years later I believe that my parents have forgiven me, and we have a great relationship, although my wedding is something that we never talk about. I know that I, however, will never be able to forgive myself for making a decision that prevented my loving parents from being able to witness the wedding of their only daughter. Becoming completely disillusioned with the church has made that guilt so much stronger. I am only 2 weeks away from my 15th wedding anniversary, and I still think of all the hurt on almost a daily basis.
As far as remaining active in the church goes, I have felt for a long time like I could just plug along under the radar, go through the motions and try to not think about anything too much. Over the past year though, it has become increasingly harder and harder. I am not sure why. I think maybe I am finding it too difficult to keep going without being open about how I really feel to my DH. Also, perhaps my kids getting older and starting to ask me difficult questions has woken up me out of my haze. Either way, I know I can’t go on like this indefinitely. I have promised myself I will give at least 6 months to my new calling in yw. If I still haven’t found a semblance of peace by then, I don’t see how I will be able to keep it up.
My apologies for the length of this post. I will try to not babble on for so long in the future.
😳 Orson wrote:Please feel free to ask any question, let’s talk about it.
Sorry, I just realized that I neglected to ask any hard questions in my overly long post. Here it goes:
One the final things (amongst many others) that really pushed me over the edge was the Book of Abraham. Given my feelings about the temple, I understand why this controversy would be especially hard for me personally to stomach. I would be interested in hearing peoples’ thoughts and feelings here about the Book of Abraham.
Asha, your story is very touching. I hope all goes well. As far as the Book of Abraham……I don’t have any easy answers. I’m pretty sure it’s not the way the official story tells it (papyri, sealed book, translation=authentic). My hunch is that Joseph basically made it up, although I don’t think there’s anything in there doctrinally that is crazily different from what’s in other sources. The basic question as I see it is whether that would independently undermine one’s affiliation with the church (conceivable) or whether that would impeach other LDS scriptures/revelations (more than conceivable).
I can’t honestly say that I have a testimony of the historicity of the Book of Mormon or even of the validity of the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants, and this is largely due to the Book of Abraham issue. If you consider the Book of Mormon alone, it really is a pretty major undertaking, and the apologetic “how on earth would he do this?” argument has some credibility for me. But if you have a strong reason to suspect that something else is a fraud, then I don’t see why you’d believe in the Book of Mormon’s historicity without at least a preponderance of the evidence, and I don’t think we can show that.
I think a lot of things in the LDS scriptures are good ideas, but that’s about it. I don’t rely on them as infallible guides or as a source that would trump a scholarly book. As far as staying in the Church with that belief, I think the essay on the front page says it better than I can. I would only add that I think it’s totally legitimate to leave over that concern and I don’t necessarily think staying is always the best option. But it sometimes is, and if we’ve invested heavily, it’s worth thinking over.
More or less what Gabe said (he is really good at this). For me, questions about the Book of Abraham (esp. facsimile 2) go directly to questions about the nature and meaning of the life of Joseph Smith. It was easy for me early in my “second conversion” to tell myself such things didn’t matter to me, because I no longer felt tethered to the LDS Church. But in the context of Staying LDS, it’s kind of necessary to accept that I am going to come against the Book of Abraham at times as part of my faithful participation. So here’s how I look at it:
It appears to me that Joseph Smith was a generally sincere and sometimes beautifully inspired person, who didn’t have all the right long-term priorities and understandings, which led him to experience pressures that often in turn led to some fudging. Now, that, in general, sounds like the human condition, so let’s not be too hard on him even as we take what he did with cautious judgment. For facsimile 2 of the Book of Abraham, he had to, in short, re-construct the original for publication. And his reconstruction is neither very egyptian nor seemingly very scrupulous. So that’s a Bad Part of the legacy of Joseph Smith. Another Bad Part (not all Joseph’s fault) is the way we have built a cosmology around the Book of Abraham that seems to imply we might discover Heaven in a spaceship. It may be that there are also Good Parts in the Book of Abraham. For example, I like the passages about the great and noble souls.
So, in summary, my approach is: 1) chuck the concept of authoritative texts and authors, 2) chuck the concept of the Great Latter-day Restorer, and 3) ignore or reframe the Bad Parts and cherish the Good Parts.
Asha, I feel for you and your conundrum. I applaud your diligence to continue to try and make sense of it. I can sense your love for your kids and for your husband, as you are so willing to sacrafice for them in an unselfish motherly way. I hope you find peace and long-term family blessings from your sacrifices now.
Your comment on daily perspectives changing is all too familiar. For me, I feel conflicted and daily go from one point to the other and I think that is just a part of my journey to seek enlightenment. I think it is a part of having faith to question my beliefs and seek answers from all sources, including God, the church, other churches, friends, books, and the internet. It means going in unfamiliar territory which scares me and I tend to head back into the safety of my old paradigm, which then reminds me I’m unsatisfied there and need to head back into new territory again. Perhaps that is evidence not everything about my church life is “wrong” or bad for me, there is still much there that my soul is clinging to and I shouldn’t have to rid myself of the good things that draw me back to it, but look for the better things I need to add that are currently missing and causing me to seek new light. I have faith one day I will look back and realize I’m a better person for my journey.
I appreciate this forum because prior to Ray recommending it to me, I was alone in trying to make sense of it all.
I like the spirit of openness and acceptance by everyone here. I feel safe in asking questions, and I am benefitting from hearing yours and others experiences and thoughts.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
asha wrote:I would be interested in hearing peoples’ thoughts and feelings here about the Book of Abraham.
Regarding my thoughts on the Book of Abraham, one thing that really resonates with me is:
Abraham 3:
22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.
Apart from the origins of the Book of Abraham, and Joseph’s actions in producing it, on the merits of the content alone, this is a powerful set of verses to me. (Obviously, this is the most quoted section of Abraham.)
It defines the purpose of this life: To be proven and learn from mortality, to keep our second estate, and that God allows His children to choose their path, including Lucifer not accepting God’s will.
Those who are taking time to study and post to this forum are taking this testing time seriously, IMO.
Gabe P wrote:I think a lot of things in the LDS scriptures are good ideas, but that’s about it. I don’t rely on them as infallible guides or as a source that would trump a scholarly book. As far as staying in the Church with that belief, I think the essay on the front page says it better than I can. I would only add that I think it’s totally legitimate to leave over that concern and I don’t necessarily think staying is always the best option. But it sometimes is, and if we’ve invested heavily, it’s worth thinking over.
I like this, and the essay that you refer to was enormously helpful to me when I was at a real low point a couple of weeks ago. I guess lately I have been asking myself the question, “Is it really all worth it?”. My Sundays have been a nightmare for years now, as I usually have to go with my five kids alone and wrestle with them alone throughout SM (the three younger ones are a real handfull). My husband is usually on call for the hospital he works at twice a month, so his only free Sundays are taken up by his calling on the Stake High Council – in other words he is rarely (never!) at church with me. I teach every Sunday, and am responsible for at least two Wednesday night activities a month, and visit teach four sisters every month. Believe it or not, I was even busier when I was in Primary. It is not really an option to not have a calling here, as many people have two or three. Due to my husband’s career, we have very little time together as a family because the church takes up all of his free time, even on Saturdays and Sundays. Now I am facing the prospect of my eldest daughter starting early-morning seminary in September which means I will have to drive her to the stake centre every morning Monday to Friday for 6:30am.
👿 I can certainly now see the importance of having a testimony from a purely practical standpoint: why go to to so much time and effort, often at the expense of your family’s time, unless you know that it is all “true”?
Maybe I am just tired.
Thank you for your responses regarding the BoA. I agree with much of what you all said. I just think I have gotten to the point where I am unable to see/appreciate the inherent value in something when the historical claims surrounding it lack credibility. That probably has more to do with my own anger than anything else. I don’t seem to have that problem with Jesus… meaning I am able to appreciate his teachings for the wisdom in them, regardless of whether or not I believe he is the son of God. Maybe that means there is hope that I can get to that same place regarding the LDS church. It is just so hard when the church requires so much sacrifice from me.
My ideas about “historical” and “scriptural” documents have changed a lot over the years. There really is no such thing as a truly historical and scriptural document. They are all a combination of human and inspirational (Godly?) components. IOW, God didn’t write any of it, and there’s reason to wonder how the translation and/or revelation process works. Consider: – the books of the OT. The first 5 books (Gen, Ex, Lev, Num, Deu) are Jewish scripture, aka “the law & the prophets.” When Christianity emerged, these books were chosen along with other Jewish stories, songs, and prophecies that they felt bolstered the claims of Christianity. Each book already had its corruptions, and there were many different versions of each. – the books of the NT. These “gospels” and letters were selected by the early church fathers. Their authors are not contemporaries of Jesus – they were written years later. Some of Paul’s epistles are copies, some are re-creations of what they remembered, and there are letter that are missing. The letters were written to correct practices among new converts (usually culture creeping into doctrine). – the apocrypha. These are the books that were rejected by the early fathers as not being historical or doctrinally accurate, although they are often inspirational and moralistic. – the pseudepigraphica. These are fictional stories written to be inspiring that are usually anachronistic and often written in the Middle Ages. – the gnostic gospels. These were found more recently and cast questions on what the early fathers deemed acceptable and what they did not. For the LDS, they are particularly interesting because the “early fathers” may post-date our estimate of “the Great Apostasy,” meaning that the gnostic gospels may be more accurate in some cases. They either restore lost knowledge, or maybe they were heretical. And then our own unique scripture:
– the Book of Mormon. The “translation” process was not like a clerk translating a foreign language and seems more like “inspiration” based on the presence of the physical record vs. actually reading an ancient text and using KJV to supplement when large passages were being quoted. And what was being “translated” was already passed through many centuries of authors & compilers before it was buried. Is it historical? Even if it’s ancient, it might be inaccurate history. – the Doctrine & Covenants. A mix of administrative items, admonitions (mostly to JS, some to others), and revelations (say what you will but D&C 76 as a shared revelation to JS & SR is powerful stuff). It’s like an proto-version of the Church Handbook of Instruction along with assorted revelations that are intended to flesh out the doctrine. Other sects of Mormonism continued to add sections from subsequent leaders. – the JST & book of Moses. JS’s “inspired” opinion of what the Bible really meant to say, and the Book of Moses really does add quite a bit theologically. Interestingly, some of it seems confirmed by the apocrypha (most of which JS didn’t have). – the Articles of Faith. Excerpt of a letter from JS to Wentworth who asked what the Mormons believed. It is essentially a creed of Mormonism and is not comprehensive. – GC talks. We are told these are scripture (in a way), but often they are a mix of human opinions. Also, we don’t consider prophets to be infallible, so not every word is “thus sayeth the Lord.” – the Book of Abraham. It’s problematic. Parts seem like JST/apocrypha/restored knowledge, parts seem like bad sci fi (Grant Palmer has an interesting theory about the origin of the astronomical components), and the facsimiles are just wishful thinking to go along with the story of Abraham. It seems unlikely the original text was really what JS said it was, but the “translation” process he used was more like reflection and inspiration, not requiring the text as more than a touch stone or trigger (something to give him an idea?). However, his Abraham account (minus the stargazing stuff) is bolstered by the apocrypha that has been subsequently found. I tend to think it is likewise apocryphal. That’s a lot of answer to just one question. Sorry it’s so long!
What Hawk said, with one addition: I see Joseph as MUCH more of a transmitter than a translator. He was “a visionary man” – with all the pluses and minuses of that. He seems to have been at his “best” / “most in tune” / “most open” / whatever when he had some tangible object to use as a prompt.
I don’t really worry much about the distinctions, frankly, because:
1) We can’t really know, one way or the other;
2) I really do LOVE the actual output.
Old-Timer wrote:I really do LOVE the actual output.
This sounds so healthy and positive… I hope I can get there one day.
I’m not sure it’s all lovable, but it’s great that his view is filled with the parts he loves. 
That’s a great way to put it, Tom – and I chose that outlook intentionally and consciously. Quote:I like this, and the essay that you refer to was enormously helpful to me when I was at a real low point a couple of weeks ago. I guess lately I have been asking myself the question, “Is it really all worth it?”. My Sundays have been a nightmare for years now, as I usually have to go with my five kids alone and wrestle with them alone throughout SM (the three younger ones are a real handfull). My husband is usually on call for the hospital he works at twice a month, so his only free Sundays are taken up by his calling on the Stake High Council – in other words he is rarely (never!) at church with me. I teach every Sunday, and am responsible for at least two Wednesday night activities a month, and visit teach four sisters every month. Believe it or not, I was even busier when I was in Primary. It is not really an option to not have a calling here, as many people have two or three. Due to my husband’s career, we have very little time together as a family because the church takes up all of his free time, even on Saturdays and Sundays. Now I am facing the prospect of my eldest daughter starting early-morning seminary in September which means I will have to drive her to the stake centre every morning Monday to Friday for 6:30am.
👿 I can certainly now see the importance of having a testimony from a purely practical standpoint: why go to to so much time and effort, often at the expense of your family’s time, unless you know that it is all “true”?
Maybe I am just tired.
Asha, I do not envy you. I think you’re showing a remarkable strength and I hope those in your life can perceive the same. I think your understanding of the practical importance of a testimony is dead on. The only way I can be a buffet Mormon as I now am is if my investment in the institution is relatively limited. I’ll help people move, I’ll teach a class or two, I’ll offer my skills (to the extent they’re present), but I cannot be like your husband precisely because I’m just not completely sold. I just couldn’t give up all of my other interests in order to be a stake president, mission president, or any other “power calling” because I would be doing some things I don’t believe in and would spend a lot of time affirming principles in which I do not believe. In your situation, I’m simply not sure what I would do: you’ve got a family that sort of depends on a heavy church investment, you’ve got a ward where it’s tough to hide………it is not easy.
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