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So I’m curious, as a newbie, to know where people stand in their attitudes toward the church. This sort of goes along a bit with the Mormon historical conundrums in another post. So fill in the blanks. I’d like to bear my testimony, I know this church is ______________ . I know Joseph Smith was ____________. I know that President Monson is _________________. I know that Jesus Christ ______________. I know that God is ______________. I say these things…
I’ll go first.
I’d like to bear my testimony, I know this church is a church. I believe it to be an organization set up by a very charismatic individual for which purpose I have not yet determined (nor do I know why Jim Jones did what he did, or why Sun Myun Moon does what he does). Many of the typical cult-ish mind control mechanisms are in place to keep people in the church and the power of religious psychology, and groupthink are very powerful in this regard. Nonetheless, it does provide spiritual growth, although if left unchallenged it produces a more shallow, child-like faith (see “Stages of Faith”) typical of most religious institutions. It also is very damaging, as an institution, to blacks, homosexuals, liberals, “lamanites,” and others who don’t fit the TBM mold.
I know Joseph Smith was a brilliant, charismatic, social genius who had many amazing spiritual experiences and eventually felt he was a prophet. He wrote a book that gives us a lot of amazing moral truths. This led to him acting as a philosopher king, embracing Nietzche’s “pious lie”, instituting polygamy (probably for sexual reasons), and eventually letting his prophetic prowess go to his head by trying to set up a theocracy and eventually destroying a press which tried to expose him. This eventually led to his murder.
I know that President Monson is a good man who honestly believes that he is God’s prophet on earth. I believe that he tries to do what is best and is otherwise a great individual save for the fact that the institution of which he is head uses deceptive recruiting tactics, promotes faith rather than honest information, and otherwise does not promote the ideals of democracies including transparency, and honesty (read: faithful history, non-disclosure of financial information, etc.)
I know that Jesus Christ was a real individual who taught a bunch of really useful moral truths, many of which can be found throughout other major religions in the world. Many of these teachings likely can be traced to various Jewish sentiments which were still early in their development. He was definitely tried, and convicted of insurrection, and was buried. I’d like to know more about the topic of Jesus Christ and His possible role as Savior. I hope that the Mormon idea of Christ is not a myth, as it is certainly compelling. But I think it more likely that Christ’s atonement and role as Savior is probably more metaphorical and can help us discover the “Christ within” as it were.
I know that God is, well, I actually have no idea on this one. Joseph Campbell often talks about God as being anything that transcends the physically explainable. This is an idea I could get along with, and it leaves room for many other religions to interpret what they want and still be “saved.”
I say these things…
I don’t mean this to be flippant at all, so please understand what I am going to try to say: Objectively, I know very little when it comes to religious things. I just don’t. I’m a reasonably intelligent guy, so I can justify intellectually just about anything I want to justify – and I can do it in a way that is logical and somewhat compelling. What I “know” is that it’s up to me to construct a paradigm in which I can grow and progress to the best of my ability – that I can’t let anyone else dictate what that paradigm looks like.
When I say, “I know,” I always mean “for myself” – “according to my understanding”. I really like the way Nephi phrases that concept, so I borrow from it. “My experiences have taught me personally” is how I define “I know” in this context – so I’m fine in saying things like “I know the Gospel is true” and even “I know the Church is true” – since I define “true” as “on target” (true flight of an arrow) or “pointed in the right direction” (true north) or “sincere” (true love). I have found a way for the Church to be an instrument (a vehicle) in my life, and I have found a way to accept the messiness and infallibility and ambiguity as unavoidable (and sometimes even personally ennobling), so I honestly don’t worry much about it from a cosmic standpoint.
Also, I’ve spent decades studying and viewing other denominations and religions, and I simply haven’t found a single alternative that inspires me at the highest level like Mormonism does. I believe we continue to struggle with the effects of centuries of doctrinal bastardization that haven’t been pruned fully from our own tree, but I “know” I don’t want to struggle to construct my personal paradigm anywhere else. It would be MUCH easier in MANY other religions and denominations, but I know I personally wouldn’t be lifted and inspired and motivated to grow and “become” like I am in the Church.
So, in summary, what I am left with in the end is nothing more profound or deep than:
I know I want to make my journey within the LDS Church.
Well stated Ray. As I continue to learn, grow, and explore, I still keep coming back to the personal truth that for me, this is simply the best path I have found in which to develop my best self. In fact, I was reflecting on this during my morning commute and was thinking that it sure would be a lot easier for me if I didn’t feel this way about the mormon “path”…I feel that walking the mormon path is the most difficult and challenging way for me to live but anything less has proved to be empty and not personally satisfying. My challenge is to be the best “me” I can be, love all those around me–whether inside the church or not–and continue to focus on the core principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. While this can be frustrating at times, I too, have not found a place where I can do so with such great intensity. With all of its flaws and shortcomings as an organization, I am so grateful for the positive benefits I have been able to experience because of my membership in the Church of Jesus Christ. professionalmom wrote:for me, this is simply the best path I have found in which to develop my best self.
As Arbinger Institute says, “Your current situation is the best of all possible situations” for growth. (I would add, “unless you are alone”.)
Now for my sincere testimony.
I would like to bear my testimony that I know the church is fully human (which is fully divine). I know Joseph Smith was a prophet (and so am I). I know that President Monson is a prophet of God (as are Cardinal Ratzinger=>Pope Benedict, the Dalai Lama,
Elisabeth Kubler-RossKevin WilliamsMay I someday be a real disciple of Jesus. Amen.
I know the church is good (from my experience as taken in whole). I know this is my inherited path, but more importantly my personally chosen path.
I know participating with the church will provide me opportunities for growth.
I agree with Ray that I am not a fan of the over-use of the word “know” when it comes to things religious. Quote:I’d like to bear my testimony, I know this church is ______________ .
I am grateful for the good people in the church who serve others and who strive to be like Jesus. I believe in the sincerity of the church to bring people closer to Christ.
Quote:I know Joseph Smith was ____________.
I believe Joseph Smith was a sincere seeker for truth. I believe he gave us an interesting example to help us as each of us seeks for truth in our own lives.
Quote:I know that President Monson is _________________.
I have faith that Pres. Monson is a sincere and good man whose greatest desire is to serve and lift others up.
Quote:I know that Jesus Christ ______________.
I love the teachings of Jesus. I find them full of wisdom and provocative thought. I feel as though Jesus is someone with whom I relate. The teachings attributed to him are very relevant to my life.
Quote:I know that God is ______________.
I have sometimes felt God’s love, as if a benevolent force was looking over my shoulder.
I can say that I know that the shortcomings of the Church are matched in myself and in other organizations. That doesn’t give them a free pass, but I know that the Church inspires good and won’t do me harm if I don’t let it. These are all great things I’m hearing from you. It is clear to me that I have a long way to go in this area. It is clear to me that I am still very much in stage 4 (hoping to not slip back into stage 3 with opposing views). It is clear to me that I am still angry, feel deceived, and otherwise would really rather not have anything to do at all with the church. But alas, I am staying in (for the time being) because of my family mostly. I hope I can grow out of it!! Quote:It is clear to me that I am still very much in stage 4 (hoping to not slip back into stage 3 with opposing views).
Cut yourself some slack. These things take time! We’re glad you’re here. I’ve enjoyed your input.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
Quote:I know that President Monson is _________________.
I have faith that Pres. Monson is a sincere and good man whose greatest desire is to serve and lift others up.
Quote:I know that Jesus Christ ______________.
I love the teachings of Jesus. I find them full of wisdom and provocative thought. I feel as though Jesus is someone with whom I relate. The teachings attributed to him are very relevant to my life.
Quote:I know that God is ______________.
I have sometimes felt God’s love, as if a benevolent force was looking over my shoulder.
I love this, hawk… I feel very much the same way.
jmb275 wrote:It is clear to me that I have a long way to go in this area. It is clear to me that I am still very much in stage 4 (hoping to not slip back into stage 3 with opposing views). It is clear to me that I am still angry, feel deceived, and otherwise would really rather not have anything to do at all with the church. But alas, I am staying in (for the time being) because of my family mostly. I hope I can grow out of it!!
Hang in there, jmb. I still waver back and forth on almost a daily basis myself! I won’t fill in the blanks in your original post since I honestly admit that mine would be pretty much identical to what you wrote yourself. However, I DO think (dare I say, “know” ? ) that it is possible to focus on the good in the church and move forward past the bitterness and feelings of betrayal (I am definitely not all the way there yet).
I still get a surge of impatience every time I hear someone at church say the words “I know”, but I try to substitute in my mind for the words “I believe”, since that is what they really mean (even if they aren’t aware of it).
I guess anymore at church when I hear people saying “I know …” it hits me as a personal statement, something more like – “I know it’s right for me in my own life” which I cannot deny them and actually agree. So it becomes a matter of translation – from language you don’t understand into their meaning that you can understand. We know their answers come from personal revelation after all, and what is the scope of personal revelation? — It’s personal. Nobody else can have a revelation that’s binding (or even very meaninful) for you. Right?
. Morzen wrote:I say these things right now…
love it
I know a young boy(about 12) got up today in F&T meeting and said he knew Emit Smith was a prophet of God. -Kind of an example of why I’m so bothered about young children offering their testimony, but at the same time it was pretty funny. I need to add that the words “know” and “true” are thrown around so simply and often that I am begining to get annoyed during F&T meetings..Other than the few sentences you provided in the original post I really admire and appreciate people who can show more genuine/deep thoughts than just the oversimplified givens. (Givens of SOME TBM’s anyway) … I am happy for the people that feel as though w/o the Gospel that they would be in some sort of deep trouble-It is a great example of the Church being needed and of the Church doing good in a persons life..It works for them/completes them and makes them happy. – I hear that often as well and I can’t help but smile and think good for them. Oh almost forgot! One woman mentioned wanting polygamy back in the Church .. during F&T meeting. Explaining she needed about four more men in her life so she could spend more time with her husband, and the “other” husbands could take over all the work. The bishop corrected her at the end of the meeting assuring as all that polygamy was not in the future. haha – Interesting day. 😆 Wish I was there to see the faces on everyone but I was feeding my baby at the time. Figures …LaLaLove wrote:Other than the few sentences you provided in the original post I really admire and appreciate people who can show more genuine/deep thoughts than just the oversimplified givens.
Yeah, actually in my original post I had a different idea, but I don’t think anyone caught on. Some people went on to talk about the word “know” and that they didn’t believe in using it etc. In my original post I was trying to encapsulate the only things that are really “knowable” i.e. “I know that the church is a church” etc. I wasn’t trying to be sarcastic, only to state what is actually knowable.In any case, my F&T meeting was okay (I read through most of it). We have about 5 kids under 10 get up and recite a whole laundry list “God, Jesus, church, prophet, parents” are “true.” It was cute, but I felt bad for them that they had been conditioned to say these thing. It’s also unfortunate to me, from an epistemological standpoint, that the word “know” has devolved as it has in Mormonism.
In any case, one woman got up and said that she knew that “all truth” was in our church. That, I thought, was very unfortunate for her.
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