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May 3, 2009 at 7:56 pm #203989
Anonymous
GuestMy SO, Silas, disaffected several years ago. He sees his breaking with the church as a painful part of the past that he would prefer not to discuss. He is afraid that discussing these things will only serve to rile him up again and rekindle anger towards the church. In the past, as long as he is just listening to me vent my concerns, all is well. However, if I ask him to actually converse with me on the subjects, he tends to either get defensive or is simply flabbergasted by my views on things. He doesn’t understand how I can, for example, not be concerned over whether the BofM is historically accurate or not. I want to show Silas that I respect him, by not trying to poke or prod in places that he would prefer not to explore. At the same time, I feel that we currently lack a mutual understanding of each others belief system. I know that I don’t understand his desire to be irreligious, and I don’t feel that he understands my desire for an integrative spiritual experience. I feel that, if we do choose to marry, then we are going to need this mutual understanding of each others belief systems. But, I don’t know how to build that mutual understanding without holding these discussions that rekindle his anger towards the church. He wants to be at peace with his decision, and usually is. But the discussions that I want to hold threaten that peace.
I
at Faces East with the intention of posing my question there. However, after reading over the FE board more, my experiences seems to be sort of turned around and backwards from their own. So, I chose to post this here, and hope that is okay.registeredMay 3, 2009 at 8:45 pm #217037Anonymous
GuestIt’s fine, trill. I immediately had two thoughts:
1) He is NOT at peace with his “decision”; he is at peace with his “situation” – an avoidance of his decision. There is a difference, and it is critical for him to understand that difference if he is going to be able to deal with it at some point. It also is critical if he is to understand your decisions.
2) Religious disharmony is as destructive in a marriage as financial difficulty. Notice, I didn’t say religious difference; I said religious disharmony. There is a big difference between those, as well, and understanding that difference is just as important. If mere discussion “riles him up” and makes him “angry” . . . This needs to be handled in some way; it can’t be ignored.
Is there anyone whom both of you trust, who is a good listener and can be a “moderator” for you – professionally or not?
May 4, 2009 at 12:57 am #217038Anonymous
GuestI second what Ray said. It would seem that your SO is likely not at peace with his decision. One of the hardest things for human beings to come to grips with is uncertainty. We naturally have an innate desire to be certain in whatever we do. For TBMs they are certain about the truth of the church, and everything they encounter will need to be massaged to fit in the Mormon box. For many anti-mormons, they have the same attitude, only in the other direction. This can be likened to those who get to Stage 4 of Fowler’s faith stages, but then return to stage 3 in the negative. It is
absolutely crucialthat we learn about the learning process in our disaffection. That is to say, the most important lesson learned (IMHO) from a disaffection, or crisis of faith, is to learn that we must be open to all the possibilities. For me, this is what separates the scientific method, from normal religious dogma. Dogmatic people (like apologists, and many anti-mormons) are the epitome of pride. They come into the discussion convinced that what they know is true, and all evidence must be dismissed, or rationalized away in order to maintain this truth. In contrast, the scientific method is humble. It seeks to understand the evidence. It must repeatedly demonstrate amongst all scrutiny that the proposed hypothesis is correct. And, most importantly, when something comes along that betterexplains the evidence, it allows the less accurate hypothesis to fall by the wayside, and it embraces the new one (think Newtonian vs. Einsteinian physics). So what does all this mean? It means that your SO needs to embrace uncertainty. I have never
onceclaimed that the church is not true. I only will claim that, given the evidence to which I am privy, it seems unlikely to me that it is God’s one and only ingenuous franchise on earth. This, for me, does not mean I need to leave it (although like you, I have days where I am ready to pull the plug as it were). If your SO does not learn this one great principle from a crisis like this, it will have all been for naught. Along these lines, I consider my disaffection to be a blessing. It has opened my eyes, increased my understanding, made me more compassionate (while still occasionally angry), loving, and has helped me feel more connected to all my other brothers and sisters on planet earth. The fact that the BoM is not historical is irrelevant. It makes me angry that I once believed it was, and then found out it most likely isn’t. But that anger is a reflection on me, and the fact that I was duped, not a reflection on the church. This does not excuse the church, do not misunderstand. But my view to stay lds is to use the church as a tool, a learning device, a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. It’s a shift in paradigm.
When I have to cooperate with people with whom I disagree I find a few things to be helpful. First, understand psychology at a cursory level. Group psychology, and religious psychology are particularly useful. This is imperative and can give you empathy and understanding. People are largely a product of what they’ve been conditioned to believe. My mother-in-law won’t listen to a word I say, she is so convinced that she is right. Facts are ignored, and all reasoning, and rationale go out the window. It is all emotion based. Try to build on mutual understanding. Agree with your SO that the BoM is not historical (if that’s what you think. If not, admit that it might not be). Help your SO understand that you’re on his team, not against him.
I would not suggest going into a marriage where there is not mutual understanding. As Ray said, there doesn’t need to be agreement on everything (this would be bad as well from a group psychology standpoint), but there needs to be open communication, dialog, and mutual respect. This is, arguably, the most important key to a successful marriage. Most of all, for heaven’s sake, only get married for love, not for a church, a temple, the CK, or anything else.
May 4, 2009 at 9:30 pm #217039Anonymous
GuestThanks Ray, Your number one is right on. The thing is, I think he’d hoped/planned to never have to “deal with it at some point.” Luckily, he’s beginning to see that for the sake of our relationship, and for the sake of one day raising a family he’s going to need to face these things. I wish that he felt the need to face them for his own sake, and not just because of how the decisions affect others. But… I don’t know.
With number two, are there any articles/studies or the like that you could direct me to in regards to religious disharmony vs religious differences. I’ve searched for information before but haven’t ever really found anything that I found particularly compelling or helpful.
As for a moderator, I’ve considered that before. BYU offers free couples counseling as long as one is a student. I think pre-marital counseling is something that all couples should participate in, especially those who have significant differences such as Silas & me. That being said, I am a bit hesitant to try counseling as long as we’re pre-engagement. I guess I feel like the therapist would be sitting there thinking, “Why are you putting so much work into this? Why don’t you two just split up and find people who are more similar?” I suppose I should just get over that though…
May 4, 2009 at 9:45 pm #217040Anonymous
GuestJmb- The thing is, I feel like he did just what you described–started questioning an then just landed on the other side of the coin. Back at stage 3, just on the black side of “black and white.” I agree with everything you’ve said in so far as it being important to embrace uncertainty. I would add embracing ambiguity, paradox and ambivalence. The thing is, he knows how I feel and simply doesn’t agree. A life full of ambivalence does not sound appealing to him. He’s certain the church isn’t true and pretty certain there is no God (if there is a God, that god is cruel.)
He recognizes that the gospel has positive affects in others’ lives and is glad of that. He doesn’t want to antagonize the church or it’s members. He’s not anti, he’s apathetic. Or, at least, he would like to be apathetic. How can I come in and say, “I’m sorry, but that’s not the way you’re supposed to grow. You took a step backwards. Come with me and let’s find a better way together.” That sounds horribly condescending to me, and I am trying terribly hard to not feel that way. I don’t want to feel like the path I have chosen is better than the one he has.
Please understand, I’m not trying to counter you here. Rather, I am expressing my concerns… and frustrations. Likely, I’ve misinterpreted what you were trying to say. Will you help me understand better?
I love Silas, and he’s helped me to become a better, more kind, loving and understanding person. We’re definitely working on the whole communication thing. Also, the references to Psych made me smile. Although he doesn’t want to pursue it through his graduate studies, Silas’s undergrad degree is in psych. fun stuff.
May 5, 2009 at 8:04 am #217041Anonymous
Guesttrill wrote:
Also, the references to Psych made me smile. Although he doesn’t want to pursue it through his graduate studies, Silas’s undergrad degree is in psych. fun stuff.
I laughed out loud at this. I’m sure he knows much more than I do then. Although, I must say, I have a very close friend with whom I have been talking a lot about this ordeal I’ve had with the church. He’s a social worker, even has an MS in social work. He introduced me to cognitive dissonance. But when I questioned him about applying cognitive dissonance to his own views on the church he was quick to dismiss them. This is probably not very surprising (hello confirmation bias). Just because we know something doesn’t mean we see it in ourselves.I would say that you probably didn’t misinterpret me, I just don’t really know how to help your conundrum. Maybe he would be willing to read James Fowler’s “Stages of Faith.” Maybe that would help him see that he landed back at stage 3 in the negative!
Keep us updated on your status!
May 10, 2009 at 7:30 am #217036Anonymous
Guesttrill, I am very sorry for what you are going through.
I agree with Ray that religious disharmony can be destructive in a marriage. I think the difference between religious difference and religious disharmony is that you can have religious difference and still have a great marriage. While difficult, two members of different faiths can build a solid marriage. But if they have disharmony – meaning they can’t talk about religion or that it leads to arguments – it is very difficult if not impossible to have a strong marriage.
I think the suggestions made by everyone are great. In the end, he may just need time. If that is the case, you have to decide if you can wait and be happy. It sounds like you love him a lot, so trust your heart.
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