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Quote:
Unplug from caring about what others think of you religiously
Detach your care, concern, and self-esteem from the judgment of other church members. To become a buffet Mormon, it means that you must not care what orthodox people think about you from a religious perspective. Religion is ultimately a private thing. It’s nobody’s business but your own. Don’t get defensive when people talk badly about you and judge you. Don’t become paranoid at what they are saying. Get to the point where you love folks, but seriously don’t give a hoot about what they think of you in terms of how you display your religiosity. One thing’s for certain — they are most likely hiding their weaknesses, and putting their best foot forward. They have their weaknesses, too. It’s only a matter of what they allow you to see or think. In the end, most people just try their best in private (often falling short), and in public, they put on as good a face as they can.
exerpt from How to Stay in the LDS Church After a Major Challenge to Your Faith by John Dehlin
I have to say that every once in awhile I struggle with my feelings when I read negative stuff about non-orthodox Mormons.
I read a thread elsewhere yesterday that had many negative comments about this article and John. It made me feel yucky and sad. It also makes me second guess myself and my journey (which I feel so strongly to be my path).
My biggest thing is worrying that I really am an “apostate” or following the devil or whatever. That was so indoctrinated that I do worry in those very rare moments. So what can I do to mature to the point where I don’t doubt myself? Or can I benefit from doubting myself?
I mean, I *know* I’m not, but I used to *know* a lot of things that I don’t even believe anymore.
I think you’ve already made the first step–coming here! You need to find supportive people. If you try to do this on your own, you’re bound to fail and give up. But there is strength in numbers, and I think that you’ll learn many skills here which will help you through this trying time. It is a tough process to go through, and finding friends to help you through these tough times will help immensely. You’ll probably learn some ways to cope better, and have better answers when people question you. I’ve said this before, but blogging has really helped me vent. As a result of this positive outlet, I no longer need to talk about these things that bother me in church (and I’m not harming anyone’s testimony). It’s given me new confidence to stand up for what I believe in (even if I’m standing “online.”) I’ve been pretty lucky in that most of the people I interact with online, are very positive and accepting of my beliefs. I enjoy talking with respectful people who disagree. (I’ve only had to chase off a few disrespectful people.) I have to tell you that I love what Faithful Dissident has on her blog.
Quote:If your mission is to “expose” the LDS Church and bring it down, skip this blog and move on.
If your mission is to justify everything within Mormonism and chastise me for my views, skip this blog and move on.
I almost want to add it to my blog.
just me wrote:I have to say that every once in awhile I struggle with my feelings when I read negative stuff about non-orthodox Mormons.
I read a thread elsewhere yesterday that had many negative comments about this article and John. It made me feel yucky and sad. It also makes me second guess myself and my journey (which I feel so strongly to be my path).
This happens to me all the time and it makes me crazy. I am surrounded by orthodox Mormons. It is my life. Even reading things like Ray, and Heber13 give me pause to rethink my views, even though I believe they respect my views even if they don’t see it the same way. Nevertheless, I am constantly second guessing myself like you. I occasionally have to take pause and remember the information, feeling, and anger that led me here, even though I am past it.I mean, I *know* I’m not, but I used to *know* a lot of things that I don’t even believe anymore.
For me, I am learning to become comfortable with the doubt, and uncertainty. I am most grateful for people I don’t agree with, especially when they disagree without being disagreeable. It is then that I learn the most, and can adjust my views. I am confident that had I gone to RFM during the pivotal moment about 2 months ago, instead of here, I would be in a very different, probably still angry, possibly having resigned, place. I am glad that I came here and listened to, and learned from people who, while still heterodox, really see the nuances that I failed to see at that stage.Thank you to everyone here, especially those in the beginning when I joined (you know who you are). And thanks to John Dehlin who saw the need for such a place amidst a church and a culture that doesn’t!
Part of getting to Stage 5 is detaching from your feelings of caring what others think of you. It’s the opposite of pride. Pride is when you care deeply about how others view you, are they judging you, do they think you are a good or bad person. In Lehi’s dream, which is a rich metaphor, the distraction is always the voices of others. (To me, that is more significant than the TBM interpretation of hold to the rod = unwavering obedience.) People judge you because they see something in you that scares them or they recognize their own flaws and project them onto others. We do the same when we judge others. Matt. 7: 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 Ne. 14: 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Maybe that means that we are literally projecting our own self-judgments when we judge others. Sometimes I do a mental exercise to hear those judgements. If I think something negative about someone, I think:
That guy is so aggressive! He wasn’t listening to me.
I am so aggressive! I wasn’t listening to him.
That guy thinks I’m an apostate!
I think that guy’s an apostate.
I think I’m an apostate.
I don’t think I’m an apostate.
It’s a way to recognize the implications of the things we think. You just echo the statements around, changing the pronouns and listening to the opposite statements. By listening closely, you can start to hear what is really true, and you further open your mind to all the possibilities.
Thanks folks. I think my journey has been way different from most. I never really have had any anger-more of the gut-wrenching mourning of my rug getting tugged. I’ve only been changing for 6-9 months. I was also able to fairly quickly find places online that helped ease me through the transition without losing my testimony of the BoM, while still getting to a point where I was able to question
everything. I’m so grateful for the sites and people I have found online! So, maybe my problem is I am prideful about myself. When someone critisizes my journey (or someone on a similar path) I get defensive. I want to be right. I need to learn to honor what is right for others even if they don’t honor what is right for me.
I will need to work on my pride.
Hawkgrrrl, you’re amazing. You can post that someone needs to get over their pride without hurting their feelings! That is an amazing talent. I didn’t even realize what happened until I wrote my reply.
just me wrote:When someone critisizes my journey (or someone on a similar path) I get defensive. I want to be right. I need to learn to honor what is right for others even if they don’t honor what is right for me.
This is SOOOOO me!! On top of all the excellent advice others have given, I’ll add one that’s helped me a ton. The book “Codependent No More” by Melody Beattie. Not sure if it’s been talked about in other threads or forums but it is the book that has helped me “detach” and love myself more than any other book. It’s fantastic.
Probably the most practical self-help style book imaginable because every individual needs to learn to love themselves beyond all the stuff that gets piled on us before we can “help’ ourselves. I re-read chapters of it all the time, very similarly to how I used to read the scriptures. (I’m not going to make a disparaging remark about the scriptures here
😈 )FWIW, I believe pride is something every human being has to get past on his/her spiritual journey, and it’s a process that continues throughout our lives. I think ETB’s talk Beware of Pride from 1988 provided some great counsel, although as I read it now, I realize I took some of it with a stronger emphasis than he gave. I still view it the way I read it (not necessarily the way he wrote it). We usually limit thinking of “pride” as someone looking down on someone else, but in reality, it’s any comparison between ourselves and others, including the pride of the victim, the pride of the inferiority complex. Self-preservation’s natural instinct is self-justification. We are each the heroes of our own story. In every re-telling, we were in the right while others were not. Those narratives become comical when you realize that we aren’t the heroes in other people’s narratives, and their narratives are full of self-justification (just like ours are).
And even knowing all that, I regularly have to work hard to let go of my self-justification, just like everyone else.
I am normally very comfortable with my lack of orthodoxy. But I don’t know if we ever get over this completely. I a couple days last week with what I called an “Iron Grip” mormon, who is a member of our ward bishopric, last week. We had long talks about our religion. After the first night, I was really starting to question myself and think about how I was not perfect in every way. Maybe Satan was really going to gobble me up any moment, and I was never going to see God again and get the biggest cookie as a reward for the final exam of life. I hate that feeling …
But there I was again feeling it a little. I got over it though the next day
😈 You can read a little more here if interested:
http://mormonmatters.org/2009/06/19/my-first-time-at-young-womens-camp/ Anyway, this is all very natural. We should be challenged by people with different views. I think that is good for us. I also challenged this fellow, who really is a very nice person, even if we don’t agree on the meaning of things. He is still my brother and a wonderful expression of the divine. We all play a role in the giant mosaic of humanity. I know I disturbed him a little too with my questions and viewpoints.
yes, very good subject and very good responses. (Note: JMB, I think I understood your point even prior to the edited post, and that is what I enjoy about this forum is the mutual respect despite different angled views of the issues…its great).
I have thought for a long time how “judgment of others” is so negatively connotative, yet in my opinion, I don’t know how to not judge others…but instead just focus on letting them go and working on the comparison thing Hawk explained well.
I just think the way our brains work, we see something, and we make a judgment on it. Perceptions are our reality, and we don’t know more than what we see or hear or feel from others. So when my sister makes a comment, do I judge her for it? I have to, that is part of processing not only the words she is saying, but how she delivered it, what tone of voice, and what background is she speaking from, for me to process the meaning of it. And many times I get it wrong and need more information to fine tune my judgments.
I feel JMB275 has judged me for what he has read about my thoughts based on my posts. He has to! That is what forming opinions is all about…our judgments based on the evidence we have. But I don’t feel disrespect from jmb (yet, anyway
I guess as we get out of stage 4, we just let go of being hypersensitive about it. But I don’t know how to NOT make judgments of others. But expressing my judgments reveals where my heart is at.
Sometimes we forget context and end up over-applying something. When it comes to judging, for example: Matthew 7:1-5 is the beginning of the wrap-up of the Sermon on the Mount. If it is taken as a stand alone passage, it lose the qualifying context in which it is recorded.
By that, I mean that Matthew 5 & 6 go into great detail describing characteristics of godliness and attributes and actions that a follower of Christ should pursue in order to “be ye therefore (“in this way”) perfect (“complete, whole, fully developed”). Those two chapters lay out what KIND of person a believer should be striving to become and some of the ways that such an effort will be manifest to those around them. THEN, after laying how to strive to become, Jesus IMMEDIATELY adds:
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, even so shall ye be judged.” He talks about motes and beams and ends by talking about hypocrisy.
Think about that context and what it means.
He’s NOT talking about judging the correctness of what people say – about making an intellectual or emotional decision about whether or not something makes sense or someone can be trusted or whatever. He’s saying, essentially:
“I just laid out what each person should do to become like my Father. That is a personal journey that each believer must undertake. HOWEVER, I’m not giving ANYONE permission to judge anyone else as that other person navigates his or her own path. When that happens, INEVITABLY hypocrisy occurs, since we can’t know what that other person truly is capable of becoming in the here and now – and we INEVITABLY condemn others for faults we also possess. So, simply judge not others’ journeys along their own individual paths, even as you make “normal” judgments about other things you simply must judge as a result of being human.”
My take away is that Heavenly Father loves the drug addict or the hippie or the ultra-conservative, neo-Nazi every bit as much as He loves me – and that He will reward those who reach Him in the 11th hour every bit as much as He will me even if I reach Him in the 1st or 3rd or 7th hour. It’s all about letting go of the idea that I’m special in comparison to anyone else – in recognizing that I’m just as much of an inconsequential nobody as anyone else who needs grace and forgiveness AND that I’m just as much of a glorious god in embryo as anyone else who stands and speaks for the Church in General Conference. “All are alike unto God” is the essence, and until I stop thinking I’m better than those who don’t see things as I do I’m violating the spirit of Matthew 7:1-5.
Old-Timer wrote:Sometimes we forget context and end up over-applying something. When it comes to judging, for example:
…
“Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, even so shall ye be judged.” He talks about motes and beams and ends by talking about hypocrisy.
Ray, I still don’t think I’m over-applying it. Like many other interpretations with the scriptures, you can’t take things word for word from the bible, since there have been so many language translations and the mode of record can be suspect, as the purpose never was to be literal word for word, but a spiritual guide for us to draw meaning from (and make judgments about).
I don’t interpret it as “Don’t ever make any judgments about others” – but more practically, don’t judge others in a condemning way because of our own lack of perfect knowledge. Treat ’em how you want them to treat ya.
We’re probably not in a disagreement here…as we are both saying to judge righteously. But sometimes there is benefit to looking into how we phrase things because it shapes how we think about it and what we do with those thoughts. “Never judge” to me would send me down a path of trying to root my thoughts of something I cannot uproot. It is the way we live and perceive life. Therefore, it is better for me to think in terms of control the thoughts, judgments, and actions to become more Christ-like.
I have just long felt that anytime someone says, “I’m being judged by others” – they are at that point judging others and complaining about it (and many times justifiably). But if others are judging me in a way I don’t feel is fair, that really means they don’t understand me, so I should show them the truth through my actions or they are the ones with the mote so just let it go and not bother with it…but either way we are all making judgments all the time. Hopefully we follow Christ’s message and judge righteously.
Yep, we agree totally. You said that very well.
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