- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
My name is Steve, or wordsleuth23, and I thought I would give a little background story. I grew up in Orem, Utah, spending all of my life in an area that was nearly all Mormon–over 80%. My first real taste of life outside of Orem, was when I served my mission in Kentucky. The culture there is different for a variety of reasons, but for me, being around mostly non-Mormons was the biggest difference. Before I served my mission, I never thought about the Church in an intellectual, philosophical way. I believed everything about the gospel; I practiced my beliefs faithfully; all of my friends and acquaintances were active LDS; I read my scriptures, said my prayers, and held various church callings. On my mission, I started to think more abstractly about the Church, and my desire for logical, analytical answers intensified as I began studying Bruce R. McConkie. At the time, this craving for concise, detailed answers about my religious questions was fine; I was busy trying to baptize people and I didn’t even contemplate that the Church wasn’t true. However, the effects of this transformation began to show when I got home from my mission. When I got home from my mission, I started to find Church very boring and unsatisfying. The discussions all seemed to be juvenile, and quite repetitive; I was learning the same stuff I had been hearing since primary. I found myself craving depth, and analysis, that wasn’t available at church. This period of time is also a time when the mind is rapidly maturing and changing, and whatever level of analytical, intellectual nature I had in me, was developing rapidly. I also happened to start college at this time, and I began to view everything more skeptically, including my religion. However, I had always been taught that I shouldn’t read things that wouldn’t strengthen my faith, and as a result, I stayed away from anything academic in nature that wasn’t completely biased about the Church. I am the youngest of four boys, all of my brothers served missions, and all of them were highly active, faithful members. My oldest brother was working on a Doctorate in Evolutionary Biology at BYU, and he started to interject a lot more about the “metaphorical” nature of the scriptures, the veracity of evolution, and various other things that were semi-controversial. Because he was the most “righteous” person I knew, I didn’t even contemplate the possibility of him leaving the Church. One day, he confided in me that he didn’t believe in the Church anymore. He tried to explain some of the causes for his disbelief, but he said the best way for me to understand his change of beliefs would be to read some of the stuff he had read. He gave me a book written by D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power; this book covered, from an objective stance, the founding time period of the Church. Considering the intelligence of my brother, and the respect i had/have for him, I chose to read a book I would have probably viewed as “spiritual pornography” otherwise. Michael Quinn has a controversial history with the Church, but he also has tremendous credentials, and his book has impeccable detail. He spent 10 years writing it; he used primary sources from over 300 libraries around the world; he had around 30 years of Church study–many in the archives in Salt Lake–to go with, and he seemed to write everything as accurately as he possibly could. The book blew me away; all of the doubts and skepticism I had, all of the analytical and logical cravings found a response, and the response wasn’t faith promoting.
After reading Origins of Power, I found myself severely doubting the Church. I had discovered so much about Joseph Smith that I had never heard about; I had read so many things that contradicted what I had always believed; I had seen the underside of the Church. I was still very skeptical of anything that wasn’t positive about the Church, so I continued my quest. I read “No Man Knows My History”, by Fawn Brodie; this basically turned my world upside down. I was absolutely shell-shocked after reading this book. I didn’t see how I could possibly believe in Joseph Smith anymore, and in my mind, if Joseph wasn’t a Prophet, the modern Church is simply an organization, not the true vessel to get back to Heaven. I read “Shadow or Reality” by Jerald Tanner; I recognize this book has an agenda but it also puts forth a lot of uncomfortable facts. I felt like my soul had been put in a blender; I didn’t know what was what; I was in total shock by this point. As I confided in my wife, we began dealing with uncomfortable fact that she still believed, and I–the super churchy returned missionary–didn’t. As I tried to salvage my testimony, I sought out the counsel of a member of my Stake Presidency–President Ehat–a Mormon historian by profession. We spent quite a few Sunday’s discussing my questions and concerns. He knows Michael Quinn personally, and he believes that much of things that Quinn has written are objectively true. However, President Ehat solved the dilemmas he faced as a historian by turning to faith; at the end of the day, the evidence didn’t matter; contradictions didn’t matter; what mattered was faith. I couldn’t accept that; I needed things to add up. I couldn’t have a mountain of contrary evidence and overcome it all because of a feeling–a feeling that had been identified from my youth by parents.
This series of events was has taken place over the last 5 years. About 2 years ago, I stopped reading and studying Mormon history. I had gotten to the point where I was just reinforcing the fact that unless I wanted to reject the most objective evidence available, I would have to simply go on faith. I understand that faith is a key principal of the gospel, but that is an escape clause/loophole to me. It allows the most unbelievable, contradictory things to go unchallenged because I simply should exercise faith; it will all work out; I may not know the answers, but God does and it’s okay. Anyway, over the last 2 years I’ve spent a lot of time studying religious philosophy, studying books that approach religion from a perspective of science, and trying to understand belief. I’ve read a number of books that are very anti-religion; they put an enormous amount of emphasis on evidence, leaving naturalism as the best source of knowledge. I’ve pretty much come to the conclusion that I agree, naturalism is the best current method for knowledge about my existence, and that knowledge can continue to advance as scientific knowledge does. I’ve basically given up on religion; it’s safe to say that I’m a fairly convinced agnostic, but I still enjoy discussing religion when the opportunity arises, and I continue to read as much as I can about the subject. My dad came across this website, and considering the many questions Ive posed to him, he felt like this could be a good place for me. He still has a rock-solid testimony, but he understands why I don’t believe anymore. He and I have relatively frequent discussions about Mormonism from a non-orthodox perspective, and he really feels like this website is better equipped than he is to potentially help me deal with the Church better. I’m still married to my very Mormon wife, and I attend Church on a relatively consistent basis to support her. I don’t hold callings, I don’t participate, I don’t believe, I don’t do anything Mormon besides go to Church. I also still live a very Mormon lifestyle as a compromise with my wife. Anyway, that is my introduction. I hope to have some enlightening, insightful discussions on this website.
Welcome, Steve. I have to say this, so please understand:
I hope you find benefit here, and we are open to any discussion of any topic imaginable, but we also are not here to dwell on negative perspectives. We’re all about moving past those and finding real ways to reconcile and participate, at least, and believe (to whatever degree possible for each individual), at most. Please keep that in mind.
It sounds like you are doing so in a way with your continued attendance, but I just need to make sure you are ok with a forum that is designed first and foremost to be a place for those who are struggling to “stay LDS”.
Good intro — sounds familiar to me viz. my own experience, though when I finally decided I didn’t have to believe in the Church anymore, God had already set things up so that I actually could. What a happy surprise that was for me! http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=174 Hi Steve, Thanks for introducing yourself. Your story is not uncommon. The community here may be a little different than you expect. We aren’t here to tell you that all you know and found out is incorrect. It just is what it is. You probably aren’t going to hear anyone tell you to just shut your eyes and have more faith, as in pretending all that stuff isn’t really there.
Our purpose is to embrace things as they are and move forward in a life of spirituality. It sounds like you have spent a lot of time studying other religious traditions too. Many of us do that. In my own similar pursuits, I was left with the strong impression that people (me included) want religion. In the absence of a mythological framework to give meaning to our lives, we always as humans seem to create one. We borrow or create from scratch. The same themes replay over and over again across time and culture.
So we find ourselves here as Mormons. What are we going to do about that? Some leave. Some stay. We are here to help people move along down the path and find new perspectives, new uses for our faith tradition. We are all at varying degrees of belief and faith, all of which are just right for each of us individually.
Thanks for the supportive comments. I don’t intend to be a negative influence here. I do intend to ask questions when things don’t make sense; I do intend to expect things to add up reasonably well for me to “believe” something; and I do intend to point out things that trouble me. I don’t want to cause problems, but in order for me to find any help here, I need to discuss subjects to their fullest; no boundaries. Boundaries are the trouble I’ve always had since I stopped believing; Church leaders and classes are so bound up that there isn’t any room for abstract thought, though provoking questions, or questioning thoughts of any nature. Hey Steve, welcome to the forum. I’m a bit intimidated…you sound like you’ve read a lot of stuff..
😯 …and likely some things I am just now learning you have gone through those hoops already, but I don’t think that this site will bore you with people not at your acedemic experience because the point isn’t to prove or disprove any of that, but more to share how we are trying to apply any of that to where we are going tomorrow in our respective journeys, how we will keep our relationships in place, and how we find peace in a LDS world simultaneously with becoming more aware of the truth around us.I have found it very refreshing to talk openly here, and appreciate others’ views that are so different from mine, yet the mutual respect is felt.
I look forward to learning from your perspectives, and I hope you feel comfortable sharing your questions on how you stay LDS but live with differing beliefs than what you had when you grew up.
I will tell you, that I very much cling to faith as something that is critical to my making sense of things. Faith is a big deal for me, even more so recently. However, my faith has changed (I recommend reading Fowler’s Stages on Faith and really understand what it means to get out of Stage 3, which isn’t the same as getting out of the church) to understand there is a place for intellectual stimulation, historical perspectives, current application, faith in the unknown, and the love of God in my life. My faith is not blind obedience or bury my head in the sand…simply an enlightened and evolved faith of how to seek truth in my life and have complete tolerance of others’ beliefs that my truth is not their truth, and their truth is not my truth. There is so much to the LDS faith that blesses my life, despite the church history.
WELCOME.
Welcome, Steve (wordsleuth23)!! If you really are looking for a way to be intellectually stimulated about all things spiritual, religious, scientific, etc. then you’re in the right place. My DW is also still believing but I’d guess there’s several “regulars” here that would identify almost exactly with your ideas of agnostic humanistic naturalistic. So enjoy!
Read some of the threads. You’ll be pleasantly surprised about the level of intellectual and honest discourse. It’s fun, too!!! (apparently we’re all nerds
wordsleuth23 wrote:I had seen the underside of the Church.
Ooh, ugly. I am with you.
wordsleuth23 wrote:President Ehat solved the dilemmas he faced as a historian by turning to faith; at the end of the day, the evidence didn’t matter; contradictions didn’t matter; what mattered was faith.
[snip]
I would have to simply go on faith.
Ooh! Careful. Faith is key, but faith in what? Proceed with caution and keep your eyes open.
wordsleuth23 wrote:I may not know the answers, but God does and it’s okay.
Not a bad approach, as long as we keep wondering, asking, seeking, knocking on who/what He/They/She/It is. It’s okay!
wordsleuth23 wrote:I’m a fairly convinced agnostic
There’s nothing wrong with a dash of humanism. I hope you keep reading the spiritual literature of the world in the spirit of Walden, The Bhagavad Gita, The Shack, Conversations with God, A Christmas Carol, the Gospels, Isaiah, etc.
I look forward to learning from you. We here are interested in the highest truth in our LDS faith. That includes fact as well as mystery, and hopefully it all leads to compassion and love. I am happy you still have your family. You are a blessed man.
Tom
Welcome to the site. I’ll echo the comments that agnostic humanism is, IMO, well suited to being LDS, provided it’s an open-minded agnosticism. I have a lot of admiration for those who find humanity worthwhile for its own sake, and I feel the same. Additionally, I think most of us are agnostic on a given day. Spiritual life is not 100% consistent. Life comes in ebbs and flows. Quote:I do intend to expect things to add up reasonably well for me to “believe” something; and I do intend to point out things that trouble me. I don’t want to cause problems, but in order for me to find any help here, I need to discuss subjects to their fullest; no boundaries.
Pointing out what is troubling for further discussion is no big deal. We’ve already discussed most of what you are likely to bring up. That doesn’t mean those issues ever add up or go away. You may feel differently in time, or you may not. But you as a person can progress and find spiritual enlightenment in the way that works for you. Our object here is to help people get unstuck. Each of us has a different story to tell. No one here is exactly the same, even if our stories occasionally resonate with others.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Welcome to the site. I’ll echo the comments that agnostic humanism is, IMO, well suited to being LDS, provided it’s an open-minded agnosticism. I have a lot of admiration for those who find humanity worthwhile for its own sake, and I feel the same. Additionally, I think most of us are agnostic on a given day. Spiritual life is not 100% consistent. Life comes in ebbs and flows.
Quote:I do intend to expect things to add up reasonably well for me to “believe” something; and I do intend to point out things that trouble me. I don’t want to cause problems, but in order for me to find any help here, I need to discuss subjects to their fullest; no boundaries.
Pointing out what is troubling for further discussion is no big deal. We’ve already discussed most of what you are likely to bring up. That doesn’t mean those issues ever add up or go away. You may feel differently in time, or you may not. But you as a person can progress and find spiritual enlightenment in the way that works for you. Our object here is to help people get unstuck. Each of us has a different story to tell. No one here is exactly the same, even if our stories occasionally resonate with others.
Let me echo hawkgrrrl here and add my own stuff.First, welcome. I think you and I will get along just fine. I think we are likely in the same boat. Your story is very familiar, but I don’t have quite the same experience. I have read some about philosophy, and psychology, and church history, but I’ve only been at it for one year, so you’re ahead of me. But I am in your camp with the open-minded agnostic humanism. I have great satisfaction in my uncertainty – a trait that seems very against human nature.
Please stay and discuss, I look forward to talking with you! I have found a way that works for me to stay and believe, but in a highly heterodox way. I don’t just stay for cultural reasons, but also for spiritual ones, even though I am quite skeptical.
Thank you Steve for your story. The responses thus far are also very enlightening to me. It seems we all have some serious questions and concerns about church history and doctrine…and each of us is dealing with it in our own way. I would encourage you to get to the place where other journeys don’t have to be yours. You may stay active with a new attitude like many here have…or you may find more peace in leaving. The point is it has to be your decision, and ultimately you do it for yourself. I think it is natural for the LDS church (and most other faiths) to attempt to homogenize the members. It’s easier that way. Perhaps that’s why the “taught” history is so clean and devoid of problems. But with the internet today, we can learn many things that are troubling. It forces us to seek a new paradigm for our faith…and our life. For most, there is a stage of anger and depression. It’s not a good place, but sometimes necessary to eventually find a path that brings peace to your soul.
You said some things that make great sense. Science is showing that many claims in the church — and most other churches — are not true…at least in the literal sense. We tend to feel betrayed and lied to. And it often leaves us with serious questions about how to live your life now, knowing what you know now. At least that’s how I felt.
Along the way for me, at least, I came to believe that all religions had questionable claims. After studying Joseph Campbell’s work, it started making sense. The BIG picture of religions show a tainted past of mass control, political battles, and of course much human suffering. It’s really only in the last few centuries that most “members” have had the chance and ability to study their church’ history. So we are bound to have dramatic changes in doctrines and claims. I’ve seen other religions drastically change their claims due to new discoveries. Some would say the LDS church has too.
The point I am trying to make is the process is all natural. I view most church leaders as doing the best they can with what they have been given. I see my parents the same way. I bless them for giving me the great life I have today. I see the church today as a powerful social and spiritual culture. There are very few other institutions that take care of their own so well. That’s a huge positive.
I also see the possibility that “God” may be very different than what has been taught. Today I believe that the God I grew up with was created by man, with man’s way of thinking and behaving…albeit allegedly perfect and consistent with our logic. I see how that evolved.
Today I view spirituality as the process of becoming comfortable with ourselves in the universe. I see it as growing our souls to an attitude of equality with others and all that is around us. That can be done in a church, in nature, or perhaps deep meditation. It doesn’t matter where you find it for you.
So, sorry for the long ramble, consider the possibility that each path is good. Some find great satisfaction in the LDS church, and if they do, there are certainly worse ways to live! Good luck on your journey!
~Rix
Rix wrote:The BIG picture of religions show a tainted past of mass control, political battles, and of course much human suffering.
I think the big picture of religions also shows a common global root of spiritual inspiration. In my experience, it hasn’t been hard to get at that root once I put anger, fear, and insistence at bay for a while. Revelation is today. God works today, revealing many important things (pertaining to the Kingdom of God?).
Rix wrote:Today I view spirituality as the process of becoming comfortable with ourselves in the universe. I see it as growing our souls to an attitude of equality with others and all that is around us. That can be done in a church, in nature, or perhaps deep meditation. It doesn’t matter where you find it for you.
Well said, Rix. Thanks for your rambling!
Tom Haws wrote:Rix wrote:The BIG picture of religions show a tainted past of mass control, political battles, and of course much human suffering.
I think the big picture of religions also shows a common global root of spiritual inspiration. In my experience, it hasn’t been hard to get at that root once I put anger, fear, and insistence at bay for a while. Revelation is today. God works today, revealing many important things (pertaining to the Kingdom of God?).
I agree with this. When I wrote what I did, I was particularly referring to the inquisitions and other mass murders “in the name of God” (although I’m sure the MMM would approach the LDS version of a tainted past that way for some).
And I am a huge fan of living in the moment. I think Eckhart Tolle does a marvelous job of teaching this (Power of Now, The New Earth…). It does seem that the more we focus on the past (and worrying about the future), the more stressed we get!
Rix, I enjoyed your response. The challenge I find myself facing–and I’m sure many of you feel the same way–is what to do with the knowledge that much of what I believed to be true, isn’t in a literal sense. How do I reconcile so much and still believe? I know that most of you aren’t here to deny the objective history of the Church; you’re here to stay LDS, just in a unique way. How? How do I deal with this cognitive dissonance? How do I deal with the fact the Prophets and Apostles have be so wrong, on so many issues? Doesn’t that just strengthen the argument that Mormonism, like all religion, is man-made? I can see how various elements of an LDS lifestyle are beneficial, and can help one be happy, but can it ever be real? For me, I need the Church to be real in order for it to help me. I need to find a way to reconcile all of the contradictions, and as of now, I am stumped; that’s why I’m agnostic. I don’t buy into any religion–not just Mormonism–because they all have similar underlying flaws. For those of you that fully buy into science, and accept the “critical” history of the Church, how do you still find a way to be LDS? For that matter, what does that even mean, what does “being” LDS even mean? Anyway, I’d appreciate feedback. Thanks.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.