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July 23, 2009 at 12:32 am #204129
Anonymous
GuestGreetings. I’m an active life-long member of the Chruch. I’m married to a very supportive, believing member and have 5 children. I’m agnostic when it comes to the “truthfulness” of the church, but I see value in the Church for my family as well as myself. My wife and a few others are aware of my unbelief and have been very supportive. StayLDS is perfect for me because I’ve made the decision stay actively involved in the Chruch. I look forward to developing a friendship with the folks here and hope to find ways to grow and find contentment in the Church. Here’s my story…
I was born in a good LDS family. When I was young my parents had a sudden and bitter divorce. My mom has always been active. My dad, however, has moved from inactivity to extreme activity during my teens, and has returned to inactivity. I lived with him during the peak of his religious fervor and followed his example. I prayed daily and read the Book of Mormon many times and received a witness before serving a mission. In high school, I was voted “Most Saintly” by the student body. I reported to the MTC with faith to move mountains and the power to baptize thousands.
The MTC was very hard. I felt that many of the missionaries entering the MTC shouldn’t have been there…like they were slowing down the pack. Looking back, I regret having those feelings. Though I knew the scriptures inside and out, I lacked empathy. A few MTC experiences also created cracks in my testimony. I remember being instructed that those without testimonies should borrow the testimonies of others when testifying. I found that troubling and inconsistent with the teaching of the church. I began to feel like a pawn in an institution.
My crisis of faith came midway through my mission. We were teaching the first discussion to an evangelical family. Their pastor was there and asked us to explain 1 Timothy 3:16:
Quote:And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
This scripture said that Christ and God the Father were the same. I couldn’t explain otherwise. This was the first time I saw the scriptures from a different perspective…one that also made sense. I spent the next week trying to resolve the contradictions in the scriptures…but without success. Eventually, I decided to pray earnestly for a witness. I received a witness, the same witness that I had received about the Book of Mormon. It felt like a warm flow of water going down the back of my neck and rested in my chest with swelling motions. However, this didn’t resolve things in my mind so I continued the experiment and prayed to know if God the Father and Jesus were the same being. I expected to receive a stupor of thought. Instead, I received the same witness! How could the Holy Ghost give the same witness for contradictory things. I came to the conclusion that the witnesses I had received…the basis of my testimony…were based on emotion not revelation. This crushed me. I questioned the existence of God. I kept this experience to myself and eventually sank into deep depression. I continued as an obedient missionary, but without the fire.
I came home from my mission a different person. I was unhappy. Inside, I became apathetic to the church. At Ricks College, I learned about and accepted evolution and found ways to fit it into my faith. Eventually, I got lucky and married way above myself. However, our marriage began to struggle because we weren’t equally yoked in the gospel. She wanted me to be more obedient and I felt trapped.
About 6 months ago I went to exmormon.com and posted my story under the subject “Ramblings from the TBM…sort of.” As “fresh meat” to the forum, I received a wide range of advice. This was a very positive experience and I decided that continued church activity was the best option for me. The site NewOrderMormon.org was also helpful, though it seems like it’s become a bit more “anti” than it’s original purpose. I’m aware of many of the darker sides of the church, but they don’t affect much because all religions have their secrets. For me, spending much time digging those things up would just make it harder for me to stay committed and hurt my personal growth. By analogy, I don’t know exactly why my parents got a divorce. I’ve heard stories from different people and I could find out a lot more if I wanted to. But I don’t see much value in digging up the past. Over the years, I’ve become more mature and have been able to have meaningful talks with my parents about the divorce. Likewise, I look forward to learning more about the history of the church, but not until I’ve developed my own spiritual equilibrium.
Over the past year months, I’ve gradually opened up and shared my feelings with my wife. I assured her that I love her and will continue to support her in raising our family in the Church. This has been an important key and she has been very supportive. Now she knows why I drag my feet and I feel less trapped. Since then I’ve shared my beliefs with my in-laws (who are good, Orthodox members) and sister who I think it a lot like me.
Last week I shared my story with a member of the stake presidency during a temple recommend interview. We talked for about two hours. It was very positive experience. I answered the questions honestly by replacing “belief” and “testimony” with “faith.” In the end, he signed my recommend, but counseled me to addend the temple regular and to resume scripture study and prayer. I’ve been doing this in concert with reading stories and essays from this site.
July 23, 2009 at 2:34 pm #219358Anonymous
GuestWelcome Scott! This is the perfect place for you. Hugs to you and your DW. Let her know there alot of families just like yours. You can read my intro if you want, but our family situation is much like yours.
July 23, 2009 at 2:45 pm #219359Anonymous
GuestScott, Sounds like you are in a good place. I am glad for you that you were given the recommend and the time to sort things out and that you have been honest with your wife and Stake President. This is kind of what happened to me at first. As I got more certain and became uninterested in “wanting to know” as my Bishop put it, I was denied a Temple Recommend. Of course, that was 10 years after I saw things differently and 4 years after talking to a Bishop the first time and getting the advice you have gotten. I am happy with the way mine turned out. Most of my family now know about my views not matching those of the church. I still have two callings. I still go to Sacrament meeting every week with my family. The ward membership is very very slowly figuring out I am not quite as believing as some of them. This all is good for me. Perhaps you will have a completely different result as you attend the temple, read, study, and pray. May the peace you have now continue to buoy you up as you go through your life.
July 23, 2009 at 3:19 pm #219360Anonymous
GuestWelcome, Scott! I agree with previous posts, this seems like a perfect place for you to help you on your journey, especially the finding equilibrium part.
July 23, 2009 at 4:31 pm #219361Anonymous
GuestWelcome Scott. Interesting journey. It sounds like you already have a lot of work done finding resolution and peace. You might be able to offer good advice to others from your experiences.
July 23, 2009 at 5:24 pm #219362Anonymous
GuestHi, I was raised in the south in a hard core, Bible believing church… no piano, organ, dancing and certainly no women teaching the men!!! I think the problem with the various understandings of the scriptures, that for every verse you find supporting one opinion, you can find others with a different spin. Although, I think it was taught, I never accepted the Nicean Creed idea that God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit were all one and it’s just a mystery. My personal belief came from the baptism of Jesus and his Cruxifiction and if Jesus is going to sit on the right hand of God, would that be his own right hand? That’s my story and I’m stickin to it
😆 I hope you will read my post and hopefully share any insight you might have for my situation… Ain’t life fun and won’t we all be going what the heck when we die????
redhatjunker
July 23, 2009 at 6:29 pm #219363Anonymous
GuestWelcome Scott. Have you read any of Fowler’s Stages on Faith? Did you find any of that pertaining to you? I’m glad you’re here.
July 23, 2009 at 6:48 pm #219364Anonymous
GuestScott, welcome to the site! I too had a strong witness of the BOM. I often wonder if our spiritual experiences differ over time perhaps based on physiological changes to the body. But I tend to be very universalist in how I view spiritual experiences. They are about me and my life (not something external to me like a church), not like a Magic 8 Ball I can ask a yes/no question and shake up. At least that’s not what I presently find works for me. I’m not saying it doesn’t work that way for people at times. It’s just totally subjective, and I think that’s how we are made. I look forward to your insights.
July 23, 2009 at 6:52 pm #219365Anonymous
Guestredhatjunker wrote:Ain’t life fun and won’t we all be going what the heck when we die????
redhatjunker
😆 – Yep, I think we’ll all be wondering “what the heck” – that’s funny.July 23, 2009 at 8:01 pm #219366Anonymous
GuestHeber13 wrote:Welcome Scott. Have you read any of Fowler’s Stages on Faith? Did you find any of that pertaining to you?
I’m glad you’re here.
Thanks Heber13.
I finished the 1st of 3 podcasts on Fowler’s Stages on Faith. I look forward to hearing them break it down further. Then I might know where I’m at.
July 23, 2009 at 8:33 pm #219367Anonymous
Guestredhatjunker wrote:Hi,
I think the problem with the various understandings of the scriptures, that for every verse you find supporting one opinion, you can find others with a different spin.
…
My personal belief came from the baptism of Jesus and his Cruxifiction and if Jesus is going to sit on the right hand of God, would that be his own right hand?
redhatjunker,
Thanks for your personal insight on the Godhead. It’s interesting to hear your perspective coming from the opposite direction. Like you, Christ’s Crucifixion (especially the wording of the intercessory prayer in John 17) added some clarity to me. But in the end, I realized that the Bible is simply a collection “ensign articles” written by individuals with unique perspectives. The message also changed depending on the audience. Throw in a couple thousand years and we have a text that contradicts itself.
July 23, 2009 at 10:59 pm #219368Anonymous
GuestHi Scott. Welcome. Orem is a good place. I am very familiar with that part of the world. 
I don’t know if this helps but……
Quote:And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
….when it says “god was manifest in the flesh”, this is consistent with the definition of the Godhead. Jesus is “God”….just not the Father.
I don’t know if I answer this question with an appeal to the scriptures alone. I feel it in my heart and my mind seems to understand the Godhead as truth, so when I read the scriptures I read them according to that understanding. Sometimes when they say God is speaking, I have to stop and ask myself whether or not it is the Father or the Son. I will sympathize with this concern though. Whoever wrote the scriptures sure did make this confusing at times. Perhaps they needed a course in simplicity.

Welcome to the StayLDS party. It is a party, right???
July 23, 2009 at 11:17 pm #219369Anonymous
GuestWelcome, Scott. No time right now, so that’s it for now.
July 24, 2009 at 6:29 pm #219370Anonymous
GuestScott wrote:Eventually, I decided to pray earnestly for a witness. I received a witness, the same witness that I had received about the Book of Mormon. It felt like a warm flow of water going down the back of my neck and rested in my chest with swelling motions. However, this didn’t resolve things in my mind so I continued the experiment and prayed to know if God the Father and Jesus were the same being. I expected to receive a stupor of thought. Instead, I received the same witness! How could the Holy Ghost give the same witness for contradictory things. I came to the conclusion that the witnesses I had received…the basis of my testimony…were based on emotion not revelation. This crushed me. I questioned the existence of God.
I think this is an excellent example of what many LDS have gone through. Great job of describing the situation! (and, sorry for your pain in the living of the experience)
I’d like to ask you, you speak of the answers that you were experiencing as being produced by emotion. I don’t know how much you know about psychology, but would the substitution of ‘personal psychological effect’ work, instead of ’emotion’? Do you see a difference in the terms?
What do you think?
HiJolly
July 24, 2009 at 10:42 pm #219371Anonymous
GuestScott wrote:
But in the end, I realized that the Bible is simply a collection “ensign articles” written by individuals with unique perspectives. The message also changed depending on the audience. Throw in a couple thousand years and we have a text that contradicts itself.That about says it all for me too! Yes, if you believe literally that all modern scripture is “endorsed” by God, then you have to deal with the conflicts. But if you view them as “Ensign articles,” written by people that had strong opinions and selected to be in “the Book.”
I like to view scripture as metaphor now. I take what is helpful for me, and don’t worry about the literality and contradictions. A favorite author of mine, Marcus Borg, wrote “
the Bible is true…and some of it happened.” -
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