- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I’ve been wondering today if the reason so many are struggling with “staying LDS” is because of “worldly influences.” The phrase “be in the world, but not of the world” came to mind. I would ask this question: What does it mean to you to “be in the world, but not of the world?” I participate at several LDS message boards, and read several blogs of active members of the church. I often observe that these individuals have been touched by “worldly influences.” I recently came upon a blog where an active LDS woman had several large tattoos applied to her back. I couldn’t help but ask myself, “Why would this beautiful young woman desecrate her body in this manner?” Did she bend to a “worldly influence?” I believe she did.
Has “being of the world” become more widely accepted by active members of the church? I have heard and read over and over that “the church is perfect, but the people aren’t.” I have also heard and read that members of the church “should let their light so shine.” This confuses me profoundly. How am I to return to the church when I hear and read one thing, and witness the opposite from members? I understand and accept that no one is perfect, but if I am being taught to strive towards perfection, how do I reconcile what I observe?
I’ve read discussions where some LDS women said they wouldn’t dare be caught in a Starbucks coffee shop, but then giggle about going to an adult novelty store. What is wrong with this picture? Is avoiding the appearance of disobeying the WoW more important than morality?
I’ve told my DH that I often feel my head is going to explode because I get so confused over what I read on-line. Is
mythinking totally skewed? 
On another note, I am so glad the StayLDS community is growing. Welcome newbies!
Great topic. I am making dinner so I might have to come back to it. Plus that will give me time to think. I think almost evrybody is both in and OF the world. Materiality is pretty hard to escape. I will admit that I go back and forth in my mind between SUPER strict (renounce all worldly possessions) and an approach of not being attached to anything, but using it as long as it is there.
The church isn’t perfect. The people aren’t perfect. Only the pure gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect.
Okay, I’ll be back with more later.
Kalola wrote:How am I to return to the church when I hear and read one thing, and witness the opposite from members? I understand and accept that no one is perfect, but if I am being taught to strive towards perfection, how do I reconcile what I observe?
Let’s get at the root of these really good questions.
What does it mean to your LDS experience that the members are not perfect? You say that you know and understand that people aren’t perfect, but you also are having a hard time observing their imperfection. Is that a fair statement? Or is it that you are having a hard time with what appears to be hypocracy?
To be fair, Jesus was not a law/rule follower. He was known as a Sabbath breaker and a blasphemer. He hung out with the “unsavory” crowd. He taught that those who were concerned more with the outer vessel than the inner vessel had their priorities wrong. Jesus called the people who
appeareduber righteous hypocrites. They went through all the outward rituals and obeyed the letter of the law but inside their hearts were far from God. I am sorry if I came across as self-righteous. I often get twisted in my words and come across that way. It’s unfortunate we cannot hear one another, but can only read each other’s words. I seem to have a tendency to offend people. 
Kalola, that’s what follow-up comments are for. 
Kalola wrote:I am sorry if I came across as self-righteous. I often get twisted in my words and come across that way. It’s unfortunate we cannot hear one another, but can only read each other’s words. I seem to have a tendency to offend people.
No offence at all! I hope my posts didn’t come across as censuring you. But, this is a really good topic. It is something we probably all think about. I know I have, and so I’ve tried to share some of the things I’ve learned on my journey.
What do you think? I am really interested to understand more of your thoughts on the topic. Is it hypocracy that is bothering you? I think that is something that bothers a lot of people.
Ray ~ You know how sensitive I am. 😮 Just Me ~ I do have a problem with what I perceive as hypocrisy with some members of the Church. My DH and I witnessed it for the first time when we lived in SLC. I am a convert and my first real experience with members was in a unique ward in Queens, NY. I am a native New Yorker. Since my experience in that ward was so uplifting, I thought it would be great for us to move to SLC to be among the Saints. We found that such was not the case. I have more to share, but time is limited right now.
I was rasied in Utah and loved it as a child. I also don’t want to paint with too broad a brush and end up stereotyping too sweepingly, but . . . Homogeneity breeds contempt – and the homogeneity of the Mormon Belt is one of the worst aspects of the Church. I like that young men and women are sent out “into the world” – since it’s hard to serve among people and not come to love them. I just wish more of those who do serve missions would move away from that area and remember the lessons they learned. Homogeneity sucks – plain and simple.
Kalola wrote:I’ve been wondering today if the reason so many are struggling with “staying LDS” is because of “worldly influences.” The phrase “be in the world, but not of the world” came to mind. I would ask this question: What does it mean to you to “be in the world, but not of the world?”
To me, it means that I am a spiritual person having a physical experience. That I am surrounded and limited, by the will of God, to this place and time, with these 5 senses as primary tools of perception. The rules that govern physicality seem at odds with the world of spirit that I once knew. And though I desire to be pure and godlike, as I understand it (darkly), I yet have urges and desires and promptings that have everything to do with physicality as biologically created ‘creatures’ and very little to do with heaven or spirit.
Yet even so my physicality and mortal urges are the product of god’s actions. The drive within me to create and sustain life (other physical vehicles for yet other spiritual people) is divine, or at least, exists as an expression of the Will of God. So why does God put Eve (speaking metaphorically) in a situation where she must disobey Him in order to fulfill the measure of her creation?
Why are we forced to sin before we can obtain ‘eternal life’?Why does God do it that way, that we must pass through sorrow in order to know the good from the evil? Kalola wrote:Has “being of the world” become more widely accepted by active members of the church? I have heard and read over and over that “the church is perfect, but the people aren’t.” I have also heard and read that members of the church “should let their light so shine.” This confuses me profoundly.
Heh. Do you really believe that bit about the church being perfect?
😈 Joseph Smith said that by proving contraries, the truth is made manifest. True words. You have outlined a very good dichotomy. If I am not perfect, can I still have light? Answer: Yes. If I am a sinner, can I still serve God? Answer: Yes. If I smoke, or have homosexual desires, can I still lighten another’s load and thus bless their life? Answer: Yes. God loved the sinner and ‘hung out’ with them, NOT the hypocrites. (I know, you’re getting to the hypocrites…)
Kalola wrote:How am I to return to the church when I hear and read one thing, and witness the opposite from members? I understand and accept that no one is perfect, but if I am being taught to strive towards perfection, how do I reconcile what I observe?
Church members are hypocrites, right? What a day it was (!!) when I realized *I* was a hypocrite. Wow. Kids are a blessing if for no other reason than they point out to us our own imperfections and hypocracies in ways we would never have recognized them, else. We all seem to want to have some image of perfection to cling to, to desperately hang on to. There is only one, according to the Gospel. God, as Jesus Christ. Not the Church, not the bishop, not the prophet. They are *not* perfect, and we have absolutely no doctrine saying otherwise.
Kalola wrote:I’ve read discussions where some LDS women said they wouldn’t dare be caught in a Starbucks coffee shop, but then giggle about going to an adult novelty store. What is wrong with this picture? Is avoiding the appearance of disobeying the WoW more important than morality?
Reminds me of good ole J. Golden Kimball:
Quote:While in southern Utah to speak at a stake conference, he’d ditched his traveling companion and headed off to a local restaurant for lunch. He was eating – a cup of coffee at the ready – when his companion caught up with him.
Said his horrified and self-righteous companion: “Why Brother Kimball, I’d rather commit adultery than drink a cup of coffee.”
To which, J. Golden replied: “Who the h*ll wouldn’t.”
Sometimes it helps if we can laugh at ourselves.
Kalola wrote:I’ve told my DH that I often feel my head is going to explode because I get so confused over what I read on-line. Is
mythinking totally skewed?
I’m not sure what it is that is bothering you. Maybe you’re expecting ‘churchy’ Mormons to be better than God expects them to be? Or better than you are?HiJolly
I may be digging a deeper hole for myself with what I’m going to write, but here goes anyway. What DH and I observed while living in SLC was the condescending attitude of some members of the Church. If you were not born and reared in the Church in Utah, you were a second-class Mormon. DH found that he was looked down on because he did not serve a mission. As a couple, we were looked down on because we were not married, nor sealed, in the temple. We felt we were looked down on because we didn’t have at least two children with a third on the way. And horror of horrors … when we did have a child, I worked outside the home while DH cared for our DS. Totally unacceptable!
How do I know we were looked down on? Let’s see … when people avoid associating with you, wouldn’t that give you a clue you are obviously not worthy in their eyes?
When I observe the hypocritical behavior of active, temple recommend holding, members, I can’t help but feel confusion and, yes, bitterness, after the experiences DH and I had in SLC.
I do believe that had DH and I listened to the counsel from general authorities not to move to SLC, we would still be active today. We were on our way to becoming “gold card” (temple recommend holding) members. But here I am an ex-Mormon, while DH is a member yet only goes to sacrament meeting on the rare occasion. It’s doubtful I’ll ever be re-baptized. However, I do believe that you can take yourself out of the Church, but you cannot take the Church out of you. DH tells me that many would say I feel this way because I know in my heart that the Church is true. Perhaps … I know I struggle with my spiritual journey towards “truth.”
I found this comment on a blog that pretty much sums up what I’m feeling and trying to get across:
“…, the more seriously you take the Church [and its members], the more you’ll get hurt.”(I added the comment in brackets.) At this time I find myself believing what the Dalai Lama said:
“My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness.”Yikes!! Now I’m going to have the primary song “Kindness Begins With Me” running through my head. See … I do have a sense of humor.
Well, in my mind, kalola, yours is the other half of the “struggle” to stayLDS. One half is the cogDis around the idea of “one true church” and all that that means (history, doctrine, etc.) and the other being the “image” issue (avoid even the appearance of evil) and all of the hypocrisy, back-biting, gossipy, etc. of the “culture” (members, leaders, utah) Personally, I feel strongly that we do our most learning and progressing “in the world”. I have many family members that I hear talking about moving to some remote place in the mountains to “get away from all of the evil influences of the world”. I don’t think that the purpose of this life is to find a way to avoid all “evil”, even the appearance of evil. The “world” is where we do most of our learning. I think avoiding this is counter to God’s plan of allowing us to learn, grow, and progress to our true potential. If we are avoiding “the world”, we’ll never discover our individual potential.
And that’s the key: individual. I can only control what I do and how I react to thoughts, feelings. If I’m concerned with someone else’s “salvation”, I’m stunting my own opportunity to learn and grow. Only I can accept my own “salvation”. And that’s true for everyone else too.
Kalola wrote:What DH and I observed while living in SLC was the condescending attitude of some members of the Church. If you were not born and reared in the Church in Utah, you were a second-class Mormon. DH found that he was looked down on because he did not serve a mission. As a couple, we were looked down on because we were not married, nor sealed, in the temple. We felt we were looked down on because we didn’t have at least two children with a third on the way. And horror of horrors … when we did have a child, I worked outside the home while DH cared for our DS. Totally unacceptable!
How do I know we were looked down on? Let’s see … when people avoid associating with you, wouldn’t that give you a clue you are obviously not worthy in their eyes?
Well, I’m sorry you had that experience. My family moved to SLC 15 years ago and we have absolutely loved it. That doesn’t mean I haven’t observed the same things you have, though. It really does happen, and I’m sure God is a sad as can be concerning those people’s behavior. They are keeping themselves away from the Kingdom by their own choice.
GENERALLY speaking: There are a LOT of stuck-up Mormons here. My least favorite mormons live in Utah. Next, California; Next, Arizona. My fav. Mormons of all time live in Texas. I have lived in all of these states, so I do have personal experience in all this.
Having said that, I really don’t think this is all a Mormon problem —- as Gandhi said,
Quote:“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your
Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
— Mohandas Gandhi
Kalola wrote:When I observe the hypocritical behavior of active, temple recommend holding, members, I can’t help but feel confusion and, yes, bitterness, after the experiences DH and I had in SLC.
I think it’s harder to be understanding and tolerant toward people when their sins are different from ours. …birds of a feather…
Kalola wrote:“…, the more seriously you take the Church [and its members], the more you’ll get hurt.”(I added the comment in brackets.)
Add to that, the more seriously you take yourself, the more you’ll get hurt.I like the Dalai Lama, and studying Buddhism has enriched my spirituality a great deal. I think psychological counselors would have a lot less work if more people lived the principles of Buddhism.
HiJolly
I think we set ourselves up for failure when we set others up for failure, as well. Expectations, in many cases, is just another name for judgments.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.