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Honestly, I think I admitted in my intro that I’m here at staylds.com as much to affect change as to stay. I cited John Dehlin’s concept of staying in to invite change. Having been here for a couple months, I’ve shifted to more “stay” than “change”. So, how many of you are here to “Stay LDS” and how many are here to “Change LDS” (either because you want to stay lds or you “have” to stay lds)
Hmmm, I have no idea. 😆 To be honest, I’m not sure why I’m here yet. I came here because I don’t like actually going to church anymore but I feel like I have to or should go. I don’t even know how to describe where I am anymore or where I fit in with the church. Part of me wishes I just didn’t care about it at all, that it was never a part of my life. Another part of me is happy I’ve had the church because I think on some level it has made me a better person. I can tell you there are things I HATE right now about “being a Mormon.” 1) I hate that belonging to a church I have grown up in and loved for a great deal of my life makes me feel like a bigot now. Both my wife and I think the church is so very wrong in the way it treats homosexuals yet there is nothing I can do about it and I feel powerless to create change within the church. This whole thing makes me feel like a tiny cog in a huge machine, I’m screaming away that something is wrong, that something is causing pain to others around me but the giant machine can’t hear me and doesn’t care anyway.
2) I hate the feelings I have that if I don’t believe in something, that if I have an issue with doctrine, that if I don’t go to church; than well that’s it for me I will miss out on all the great blessings “God has in store for the faithful.” I used to think this was just a problem within myself but I don’t think it is. The church and my family have drummed this into me, believe and you will be rewarded with great rewards, don’t believe and you only get the “other prizes available” option. I guess a better way to say it is that I really want the Celestial Kingdom but I don’t think I can be Mormon enough to get there.
3) I hate that there are so few people I feel like I can talk to about these things, I hate feeling alone.
There are more but I can’t think of them right now. I know I’m not here to “solve” any of these problems that’s for sure. But I come here almost daily now and just read posts – maybe just to feel a connection with others who are willing to admit that life in the church sometimes doesn’t make sense to them either.
@Sam I appreciate your comments. I have felt that way so many times, and still feel that way sometimes. Hopefully we can help each other.
@swimordie
I am here to stay LDS. I have no illusions that I will effect change. This would give rise to expectations, and those never lead to anything good. You know, I will be honest here. I have harped on this subject before, and it hasn’t received much interest. I will try to explain what allows me to stay.
I read the book “The Wisdom of Crowds” and I posted a review in the Book Review section. Why did this help me? After reading this book I became resolved that I am a small part of a large crowd. In fact, I am part of many crowds, some small, some large. There are many things that make a group dumb, and others make them smart. Things like herding, information cascades, and groupthink make a group dumb. Independence, cognitive diversity, and good aggregation of opinion make a group wise. I have always been a believer in democracy, and free markets as I believe them to be the most fair, have the fewest assumptions, and the safest in terms of civil rights.
Anyway, I started to understand my personal role in this process, that is, making the group smart. My role is not to be the expert, and it’s not to be a dictator (authoritarian at the top). My role is to be one of the ones that contribute to a wise crowd. For me this means:
1. I must have cognitive diversity. That means I don’t really want to think the way everyone else does. I want to gather my own information from independent sources and decide for myself what I think is right.
2. I must have independence. That means I avoid being part of herding, information cascades and other things people do just to be part of the crowd. Peer pressure, and statements from authorities carry no weight with me.
3. I also realize that no organization (centralized management) is going to take care of me with my best interests in mind, hence I keep a healthy dose of skepticism in the back of my mind when analyzing what people claim is in my best interests.
4. Heretics are the catalysts for change in a culture. Our job is in the aggregate. Yes, there is the occassional outlier that changes the world (MLKJ, Einstein, Galileo, etc.) but these are few and far between, and it’s likely this role won’t come to me. My job is to quietly be a heretic and contribute my voice toward the change I think is needed.
In these realizations, an important point occurred to me. The point of a wise crowd is that it makes optimal decisions. In fact, it makes better decisions than experts, and panels of experts, and better decisions than
I myselfcould make. Hence, I put my faith in the power of a wise crowd, and do my part to make each crowd of which I am a part, wiser and better able to make optimal decisions. This describes my involvement on a group level. On a personal level, I stay to serve people. Serving people has always been something that has brought me happiness. I know there are other opportunities to serve, but I like to serve in Mormonism. I also think Mormonism, generally, produces great people (and you all are evidence of this) and I enjoy associating with you, even if only for cultural, or habitual reasons.
I want to do both, and I probably am in a unique position here to do both (at least at the local level). However, I am not out to “force change”. Hopefully, I can let my light shine and my mouth move in such a way that my service to others will allow change to occur. I have had experiences that tell me it is possible, and I have seen MASSIVE changes at the local level accomplished by wonderful leaders who are committed to it. My former Bishop (two of them in succession) and my former Relief Society President are perfect examples of that. I miss that ward, but I am not going to let it get me down – since I believe I have part of the responsibility for helping my new ward (which also is great in many ways) become what my old ward is.
Well, right now I feel like I am on my own journey whether I participate in the church or not. I find myself feeling out how I want to participate in the church. For example: Does the church have to dominate my social life and my efforts of service in order for my life to be acceptable to God? I say yes….and no. I suppose it all comes down to God’s will for me and my correct understanding of it. I am going to stay LDS because I can’t walk away from it. There is too much spiritual knowledge inside of me that makes walking away impossible right now. But do I have an agenda to change things? No. It would be like anything. There are certainly some change I would like to see with regards to how the church handles big issues in people’s lives. But, I just have to do my best and if that effects positive change in someone or some church process, well then good. I know I am blessed and stretched by being around certain people who are farther along the path than I. Perhaps I have something to offer if I can find the courage to turn my inner light on for others to see.
I still struggle with full participation in church activities. But I am not going anywhere either. I mean, where would I go?
Btw, “full participation” to me means doing whatever is best for you. Period. Good comments everyone. As a simple reminder StayLDS does not support any grass-roots efforts to effect specific change in the church. I think it has been said many times “we support people to grow and improve themselves” – so they may be more comfortable/compatible within the church. (This is also my personal goal.)
Again, all good comments so far. Good thread Swimordie!
I wasn’t totally clear on what you meant by Change LDS. Is it change the Church? Or change the way we as individuals are LDS-ish? I assume you meant changing the organization, the group. I guess I am also both, but more about Staying and adapting my relationship to things as they are. By staying, and being a part of it, I think in a small way I will be a part of change. I don’t really have expectations or time tables. I hope that by staying, and encouraging other wonderful “misfits” like me to stay (that I love), we will become an influence on the overall direction.
My personal approach is to *BE* the person I wish others would be. Do I wish members were more compassionate, understanding and accepting of different views? Then I will be compassionate, understanding and accepting of views that are different than mine (which might be traditional ones), *AND* an active part of the community — an agent of change by example, not by proclamation.
Change LDS, which essentially means Change Tom Haws. What Valoel said, pretty much. Whoa! I just had an epiphany. If Change LDS means Change Tom Haws, then does Preserve LDS mean Preserve Tom Haws? I mean, as long as I believed the LDS Church was perfect and whole and a model to the world and in no need of change, did that extend to my believing some of the same things about Tom Haws? Scary!
And if I believe the LDS Church (as an averaged whole) lacks key truths that could save it from great stress and grief and sorrow, I suppose it would be natural to believe that about myself, since turnabout is fair play.
Thanks for sharing that Tom!!! I hope that the general authorities are browsing this site, at least a few, or Church staff. Do you think that they could be? Do you picture leaders in the Church wanting to know what we think?
primarycolor wrote:I hope that the general authorities are browsing this site, at least a few, or Church staff. Do you think that they could be?
Do you picture leaders in the Church wanting to know what we think?
There are some claims that they read Sunstone, etc and that exmormon blogs get hits from the COB. So, I think that they do try to keep up with what people are thinking/doing/saying.
I would like to StayLDS, and change my view of LDS. I don’t think I am capable of changing the Church or how it does things (and don’t really feel I need to)…but I don’t think I can go back to what I was the last 20 years of being a serious mormon. My view of the LDS church and its teachings is different…so I need to change how I view it, so I can stay.
I have very much wanted to remain active in my faith, but I have noticed that some members have begun to slide in areas of equality and social justice. I would have thought that the gospel of Jesus Christ would have been the ultimate model for social justice and equality, but politics has seemed to overshadow the core gospel. If I could change one aspect of being a cultural Mormon, it would be to help members of my faith embrace social justice and equality. So far, I have failed completely.
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