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I know it is probably foolish but I want to be called in by my BP or SP. I want to tell them how frustrated I am with the way the Church sugar coats everything and doesn’t address valid concerns about its history/doctrine. I want them to know where I stand and how disappointed I am in the Church. I don’t know why I feel this way but I do. Sometimes I fantasize about going into the SP office and letting him have it 👿 .As it stands I am largely ignored by leaders in my stake. Not that I think I’m something special that deserves their constant attention, just that I’d like to feel that they at least understand why I have concerns about the LDS faith. In short, I want to be understood. Selfish, I know but I hate acting like everything is great when it’s not. I know for a fact that at least one member of the BP knows I refuse to renew my TR but I have never been asked why, not once. It’s like a curse, I don’t want to be excommunicated or disciplined but I also don’t want to keep my mouth shut. I can’t have both and sometimes it makes me crazy. There must be some kind of psycho babel word for what I’m feeling, any psychiatrists out there know what it is?
Kinderhook08 wrote:I know it is probably foolish but I want to be called in by my BP or SP. I want to tell them how frustrated I am with the way the Church sugar coats everything and doesn’t address valid concerns about its history/doctrine. I want them to know where I stand and how disappointed I am in the Church. I don’t know why I feel this way but I do. Sometimes I fantasize about going into the SP office and letting him have it
👿 .As it stands I am largely ignored by leaders in my stake. Not that I think I’m something special that deserves their constant attention, just that I’d like to feel that they at least understand why I have concerns about the LDS faith. In short, I want to be understood. Selfish, I know but I hate acting like everything is great when it’s not. I know for a fact that at least one member of the BP knows I refuse to renew my TR but I have never been asked why, not once. It’s like a curse, I don’t want to be excommunicated or disciplined but I also don’t want to keep my mouth shut. I can’t have both and sometimes it makes me crazy. There must be some kind of psycho babel word for what I’m feeling, any psychiatrists out there know what it is?
I”ll bet your leaders are not talking because they have no idea what to say to you.In this forum, though, we more or less understand what you’re feeling. Keep talking to us, K08. We’re here for ya!
I’ll bet you’ve got something to say to a guy like me, who knows about polyandry and Kinderhook and all sorts of stuff, and still believes that Joseph was a prophet. Let me have it!
HiJolly
@kinderhook: I’m not a psychiatrist but I know what your condition is called: codependent. I know because I have the same affliction. This was one of the bigger reasons that I had therapy: dealing with the incongruence of my belief system to that of my immediate family (spouse, parents, in-laws).
You want to be validated and you want someone to acknowledge that you’ve been hurt. You want to MAKE someone, anyone, understand.
This is natural. Unfortunately, it’s also not very probable and even if you did get someone to acknowledge all that, it wouldn’t be enough. Your stuck by this mindset. (Again, I’m speaking from my very own experience)
Somehow, someway, you will discover that there’s only one person who matters in this world: YOU! Only you can change how you feel. Only you can accept or reject a thought or feeling. (you can’t control thoughts or feelings, but you can learn to deal with them in emotionally healthy ways)
Some people aren’t going to like this, but we became codependent on the church, the culture, the leaders, because we allowed them/it to emotionally abuse us. It doesn’t matter whether the abuse was intentional or not. We allowed it to happen and we allowed it to happen because we thought it was the right thing to do.
Now, we know that it’s not the right thing to do, we refuse to be abused anymore and we want an apology or a validation of our feelings. This would be great, if the offending party was willing to. But they’re not and we can’t make them. All we can do is embrace ourselves, the light that emits from our center, the love that comes out of that light, and the good that is the source of that light.
We can change ourselves and tell ourselves how great we are. Because it’s true and only we need to hear it from ourselves. We can’t make someone else love us and, frankly, it doesn’t matter. The love and acceptance that we give ourselves is EVERYTHING! To reach our true potential for love, intimacy, joy, peace and happiness, we must love ourselves unconditionally and embrace our own light.
We won’t be affected by what people think about us, say about us, acknowledge about us or care about us.
We can only control ourselves. And be the best we can be.
And know that we are loved: by ourselves and by that light that we feel inside.
Kinderhook08 wrote:I know it is probably foolish but I want to be called in by my BP or SP. I want to tell them how frustrated I am with the way the Church sugar coats everything and doesn’t address valid concerns about its history/doctrine. I want them to know where I stand and how disappointed I am in the Church. I don’t know why I feel this way but I do. Sometimes I fantasize about going into the SP office and letting him have it
👿 .
I won’t try to talk you down from that tree…you feel that way and there must be a reason why you’re so disappointed with the Church…something about what you want from the Church and it isn’t giving it to you (honest church history, time and attention personally from others, feeling needed…or whatever).But I would guess if you did get a chance to march into an office and give speak your mind…it wouldn’t satisfy you. Because those leaders probably didn’t do anything personally against you, and they wouldn’t be able to apologize for the entire church towards you.
If you feel the church is not functioning as it should…maybe you can help make it different. Even if that is touching one other person in the ward with the same feelings as you.
I just don’t know what your expectations are of being called in will do for you and the issues you have with the church. Sorry if that isn’t comforting, but realistically, the leaders can only do what they are capable of doing.
I think you’d be better off spending time finding out what bothers you about the church, and find ways you want to live with that or change that. You might be able to control that part of the equation.
Kinderhook08 wrote:As it stands I am largely ignored by leaders in my stake. Not that I think I’m something special that deserves their constant attention, just that I’d like to feel that they at least understand why I have concerns about the LDS faith.
Based on what you have shared with us, it doesn’t sound like they have any idea at all that you are having problems. You can’t keep up “appearances” (we all do to some level) and also have them somehow notice that you are troubled. I know leaders aren’t all perfect, but most I have met with personally care about people in the wards and stakes. You aren’t telling them; therefore, they don’t know.
I guess my Stake Presidency ignores me too … I am not sure I could even tell you their names off the top of my head, or put the name to a face. I don’t really care enough I guess, or I guess I would have made it a point to remember.
We all have a deep emotional longing to be understood by people. That probably one of the most important things to let go of in order to find peace in life. That applies to the Church, and also applies to all other relationships. Having our happiness tied to that dependency will almost never allow us fulfillment.
I’ve seen other wise people mention over and over — the way to be understood, is to first seek to understand others. I find that to generally work, as best as I can put it into practice. Every emotion we send out comes back to us reflected by the world of people around us.
Kinderhook08 wrote:I know for a fact that at least one member of the BP knows I refuse to renew my TR but I have never been asked why, not once. It’s like a curse, I don’t want to be excommunicated or disciplined but I also don’t want to keep my mouth shut.
You won’t be excommunicated or disciplined for having doubts or feeling angry. They will never know if you don’t tell them. Think of it from their perspective. Do they want to cause you trouble by demanding to know why you aren’t asking for a TR? Do they want to put you on the spot and explain your problems if you are not ready to talk to them about it? That is usually the case. They are probably waiting for you to want to talk to them, when you are ready. It shouldn’t be an inquisition. That isn’t the spirit of temple attendance.
I haven’t had a TR in over 5 years. The BP knows it. Only recently did one member of the BP try and broach the subject when we were hanging out. They did it very much from a loving point of concern for me and my family. I am very confident that person was not in a place personally to hear my dump truck of ideas unload on him. I love him. He is a dedicated and compassionate member of the ward Bishopric, but I know from our conversations that he does not handle my perspective on religion well (what little he knows). I gave him some vague hints and let him know I would seek a TR when it was time to do so. He left it at that.
I hope you can come to peace with just being who and where you are. Everything is fine. Swimordie gave a really thoughtful response. I think it was good advice.
Valoel wrote:Based on what you have shared with us, it doesn’t sound like they have any idea at all that you are having problems. You can’t keep up “appearances” (we all do to some level) and also have them somehow notice that you are troubled. I know leaders aren’t all perfect, but most I have met with personally care about people in the wards and stakes. You aren’t telling them; therefore, they don’t know.
Valoel, don’t you also think that sometimes they may know we are troubled, they just don’t know what to do about it? In that case, is it good to approach them or just let it go?Either way, I don’t think it is something personal with leaders. They don’t “owe” me anything … but if I do want to be understood…I should call the clerk to setup an appointment and try to follow your advice and understand them so they can understand me. I think the more we treat our leaders with love and compassion, the better chance we have of them really wanting to return that love.
I decided my TR interview was a great chance to explore increased personal honesty. Bless their hearts, they listened to my frank disclosure about my position. I didn’t dump, but I disclosed. And they hugged me and signed the recommend. All the previous responses are right. And Valoel is right that swimordie did a really good job this time. I am really impressed with all of them, HiJolly through Heber13. If you want to go in, go in. But they really aren’t equipped or in a position to do anything more than what they did for me.
Tom Haws wrote:I decided my TR interview was a great chance to explore increased personal honesty. Bless their hearts, they listened to my frank disclosure about my position. I didn’t dump, but I disclosed. And they hugged me and signed the recommend.
All the previous responses are right. And Valoel is right that swimordie did a really good job this time. I am really impressed with all of them, HiJolly through Heber13. If you want to go in, go in. But they really aren’t equipped or in a position to do anything more than what they did for me.
I have done this as well – I made my opinions very well known on more than one occasion to my leaders, and it didn’t do much except to make me a ward project. Of course I have been a ward project in most of my wards since I was married, so that was nothing new. However, it is kinda fun to see a bishop’s face be filled with fear when you interrupt a meeting, demanding to be released from a calling, while using some very colorful language. It’s even better if after saying your piece, you storm out of the church and go straight home. That will definitely get you called in if that’s what you really want. In fact, the phone was ringing before I opened the front door to my house.
swimordie wrote:@kinderhook:
I’m not a psychiatrist but I know what your condition is called: codependent…
You want to be validated and you want someone to acknowledge that you’ve been hurt. You want to MAKE someone, anyone, understand.
That could very well be. Thank you for your advise.
I know its true, but as you probably know its takes time to come to peace with the church’s skeletons. I guess I’m still finding my way through the process. Most days I’m fine but sometimes I feel so constrained I want leave and put some distance between me and the Church. Unfortunately that’s not possible for me to do. Thanks again, I’ll keep trying to reminding myself my opinion is the only one that matters.
HiJolly wrote:
I”ll bet your leaders are not talking because they have no idea what to say to you.
You’re probably right. It’s the downfall of having a lay ministry, they don’t know any more than the average member.
HiJolly wrote:
In this forum, though, we more or less understand what you’re feeling. Keep talking to us, K08. We’re here for ya!I’ll bet you’ve got something to say to a guy like me, who knows about polyandry and Kinderhook and all sorts of stuff, and still believes that Joseph was a prophet. Let me have it!
HiJolly
Please tell me how you can still accept JS as a prophet. I really would like to but after a while I just couldn’t justify things anymore, too much circumstantial evidence to explain away.
It does take time kinderhook. Patience and the long view are key. For me, participating here at staylds.com has helped immensely. Keep it up!
Kinderhook08 wrote:HiJolly wrote:
I”ll bet your leaders are not talking because they have no idea what to say to you.
You’re probably right. It’s the downfall of having a lay ministry, they don’t know any more than the average member.
Well, don’t worry too much about that. Jesus was ‘unlearned’, according to his fellow Jews, and none of his disciples were educated either. Joseph Smith fits into that precedent very nicely, indeed. Saul *was* educated, but he’s a Johnny-come-lately that might have been self-appointed (eg, not ‘called’ by the Church). What a maverick!
Kinderhook08 wrote:HiJolly wrote:
I’ll bet you’ve got something to say to a guy like me, who knows about polyandry and Kinderhook and all sorts of stuff, and still believes that Joseph was a prophet. Let me have it!HiJolly
Please tell me how you can still accept JS as a prophet. I really would like to but after a while I just couldn’t justify things anymore, too much circumstantial evidence to explain away.
Tall order, considering the long list that has accumulated, don’t you think? Go over to the History & Doctrine Discussion thread, and open a few
or better, look through what’s already there, and start making comments on those discussions. We’ll join you there.I will say a couple of things, though, in response to you.
First— knowing that there is a God (of whatever type or nature) in heaven (of whatever type or nature) really helps.
Second— Knowing that God doesn’t require us people to be perfect helps a lot. In fact, God guaranteed that we’d be sinful as heck. Can you be ok with that? He is.
Third— Knowing that prophets are just people helps too.
Fourth— Don’t take ANYONE’S word for it. Don’t believe ANYONE. Read Quinn, Palmer, FARMS, Brodie, FAIR, Nibley, Abanes, Bushman, Tanner, Ehat, etc. Note their sources, and toss their verbiage. Go to the sources. Understand the approach, discipline and rules of historians. Read and study them. Learn about the context in terms of popular culture of the day, as well as the biases of the authors, both contemporary and historical.
This is what I did. Well, honestly I didn’t have time to do all that, but here’s what I did do: I picked four issues that bothered me. Then I looked up what I could find on the subject. I carefully noted what was editorial comment and what was factual. I weighed evidence and probabilities. I prayed, I pondered, I sought insight from other people.
I learned a lot. I learned that Joseph was far more complicated and had done a lot of things that the Church doesn’t ever tell in church meetings. They may write about it– but they sure don’t say it. I also learned that most of the ‘shock’ value lost its impact when I studied and learned about Joseph and his times without prejudgment. As much as I could, anyway.
And, I cheated. God made sure that I knew He was real, before I ever started. He also worked with me enough for me to know how revelation happens, and that Joseph was not a lot different than I am. I think the differences are threefold: (1) He was braver by far than I; (2) He was in a different time and culture by far; (3) God wanted JS to do something different than what He wants me to do.
We have not had a prophet like Joseph since he was killed. And for me, that’s OK. I’m not sure I would be strong enough to follow a prophet like Joseph. I would hope, but I’m not sure at all.
HiJolly
Kinderhook08 wrote:Please tell me how you can still accept JS as a prophet. I really would like to but after a while I just couldn’t justify things anymore, too much circumstantial evidence to explain away.
I really like HiJolly’s First, Second, and Third points. For me, this is the Fourth how:
Fourth: Be a prophet. It takes one to know one.
I am not one who looks up to Joseph in any special way or who thinks the Book of Mormon or the totality of Joseph’s fruits are particularly impressive. I don’t see any reason why any random person ought to be LDS or even know about Joseph’s ministry. But with all that, I believe he was a prophet.
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