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This is the reason I’m here anyways, so here it goes. In all my studying, praying, searching and discussions, I have come to feel that there cannot be a true church on this earth. I cannot accept that God would place a Heavenly order upon the earth, knowing only a selected few would learn of it, that He would require it to be necessary for salvation and exaltation, that He would hold us as responsible as the angels in heavenly court, that we would be held eternally accountable to its law; and that He would do all these things without lifting the veil. It just seems unjust. Most folks that try to combat the facts, evidences and details that corrupt the image of the church, reconcile it all with one giant sweep of a thing called faith. When it comes down to it, you believe in the church because you feel it is true. Can those folks also accept it when someone
doesn’tbelieve in the church because of faith? Because to me the church doesn’t feel true. A brilliant uncle of mine took it all back to feeling the spirit. The spirits guides us all. Well, I have felt the spirit all my life, in and out of the church, with or without members around me. I think God is everywhere. And furthermore, I cannot be so arrogant as to think that my faith is greater or less than anyone else’. How can we know if the burning in an LDS’s bosom is greater than a Buddhist or Hindu or Jew ect… ? The LDS church does not hold a distinctive flavor of devoutness to me, nor unique truth. And I see my LDS friends and good folks on this website try so hard to convince themselves that they can refit their testimony after learning more and more, but for me I really just want to trust my gut feeling, my faith. My question is whether or not someone like me should remain? I do not doubt the goodness of the church, just the content of its theology. I have been considering sending in my resignation letter as a reason of honor to the church and myself.
Spacious Maze, Your questions are very sincere and good. I appreciate the anquish you are going through right now, as I have been there. Perhaps, a very special experience that happened to me some years ago may help you. Here it is:
Even though I was raised in the church by convert parents, had a strong testimony, and went on a mission to Austria, I too have struggled with my testimony at times. Even with my belief in God. I did not marry until I was 25 and I know the pressure there is to get married and have kids in the church. There have been several times that I felt like a misfit in the church and did not belong. My husband, raised as an atheist, and a scientist, had a hard time with faith and religion. He went to Catholic Parochial school as a child but that turned him off to religion. The Mormon faith was the first religion that made any sense to him and he joined on an intellectual testimony hoping the spiritual one would come. When it didn’t, he left the church and I found myself crying my eyes out in a fast and testimony meeting one Sunday. I was begging the Lord to tell me why he had not given a good man like my husband a spiritual witness.Something very unexpectedly happened then. A clear thought came through my head that said, “Why don’t you go visit that 7th Day Adventist church around the corner?” I thought, “We’re did that come from” and then the thought came to me two more times. I told my husband about it and we decided to follow that prompting. I met with the pastor of that church several times and the things he gave to read answered some important questions I had. You see I had been doing all the right things in the church, (paying tithing, going to the temple, etc. etc) but none of the blessings seemed to be coming. In fact everything had gotten worse. My kids were in trouble and my husband did not get his raise, the car and washer broke down, and now he left the church. Where we all the blasted blessings they kept preaching about from the pulpit. Then I came across some anti-Mormon stuff from the Tanners that quoted out of church history and Journal of Discourses. For the first time I thought that the church might be false.
This pastor handed me a little book called “The 5 Day Plan to Know God.” As I was reading, it talked about how the Jews were waiting for their Messiah to come save them from all their trials. When he came and told them he came to save them from their sins not their problems they were ticked off. A light bulb went off in me and I realized I was like those early Jews waiting for God to save me from all my problems. Suddenly I realized I had been living the gospel for the wrong reasons. I knew immediately that the only thing I should be concerned about is being saved from my sins and that is why Jesus died for me. When my husband joined the church the missionaries assumed he had the milk of the gospel (faith in Jesus Christ) but he didn’t. Sometimes in the lds church we concentrate so much on the meat we neglect the milk of the gospel. Other churches mostly have the milk so it is often highly concentrated there. We left the church for two years and investigated the 7th Day church, but one day as they were teaching us a class on the signs of a true prophet, my husband and I looked at each other and knew they were talking about Joseph Smith. Then two books called the “Gainsayers” and “Are Mormons Christian” came into my hands and answered my many questions. Plus we met every week for a year with a man in our old ward who had a Masters degree in Church history. I had never prayed so hard to know if the church was true or not. I cried and cried for a while thinking I had been betrayed by the church like a woman who had found out her husband had cheated on her. We finally came back to the church and had a much stronger testimony, but during that time I asked the Lord about the 7th Day Adventist church and Ellen G. White and other churches (my daughter had joined the Baptist church and my daughter in law was Lutheran). The Lord spoke to me and said the following: “Although the lds church has the fullness of the gospel, I work through all the churches and they are all my people. That other churches are like stepping stones to the full truth. Not everyone can handle the fullness right away. You cannot take a junk food junkie and make them a health food nut overnight. Line upon line. So, at times God leads people to good Christian churches that may prepare them for the fullness eventually.
Remember that when Jesus told Joseph Smith that the other churches had teachings that were an abomination in His eyes, he never said the people or the churches were an abomination just the teachings. Martin Luther, John Calvin, etc, were all reformers and stepping stones towards the truth. I personally prefer to tell people we have the fullness of the gospel instead of saying the ONLY TRUE CHURCH, implying how false they are. My dad was such a wonderful convert to this church. He would meet a Baptist or Lutheran and tell them how wonderful it was that they were Christians and all the things he loved about their faith. Then he would say, “If you can show me that your church has more to offer than mine, I will gladly join your church,” and then a wonderful discussion would pursue.
My dad joined the Mormon church in Germany when he was 25 trying to show his best friend how false this church was. The first time he stepped into a Mormon church he had prayed for God to let him know what kind of a church this was. Shortly after he stepped into the church he noticed his wallet had been stolen. He thought, “Ok, here’s my answer, they are a den of thieves.” As he was leaving he decided to stop and listen to the branch president that was talking at the time. He said, “If you have come to this church to find perfect people, you will be greatly disappointed, but if you want to know if the teachings are true, you will find the truth. Just like with Joseph Smith, Satan arrived first, then God.
Hey Spacious Maze, I appreciate your candor. I understand where you are coming from. Let me provide my opinion and reaction, as someone who promotes this site and works to help people stay in the Church. spacious maze wrote:I have come to feel that there cannot be a true church on this earth. I cannot accept that God would place a Heavenly order upon the earth, knowing only a selected few would learn of it, that He would require it to be necessary for salvation and exaltation, that He would hold us as responsible as the angels in heavenly court, that we would be held eternally accountable to its law; and that He would do all these things without lifting the veil. It just seems unjust.
I have very similar thoughts and doubts. I am not very attached to the idea that living the Mormon experience is the one and only valuable life to live, and all others are a sad failure of judgment on the part of people (who won’t believe) or bad timing (being born at a time with no Mormon religion). I just can’t accept that specific interpretation of life as a plan made by a God — it fails for 99.99% of all the people that pass through life.
Here is where I will differ. I don’t think that means I have to throw out the whole myth and metaphor. I personally think it is a story that helps point us in particular direction. I think the LDS Church has a really beautiful and positive message to share about what our life should focus on. I think members, even leaders, of the Church run into problems when they flip the metaphor around and focus on the shadow meaning, the opposite — that if you DON’T do it this way, you fail.
spacious maze wrote:Most folks that try to combat the facts, evidences and details that corrupt the image of the church, reconcile it all with one giant sweep of a thing called faith. When it comes down to it, you believe in the church because you feel it is true.
I think you know what that behavior is about. It is a denial or an unwillingness to confront the problems and flaws. You see through it. These “most folks” don’t. Feeling good about something is a tool. We should feel good about good things. We should feel bad about bad things. A lot of people just don’t want to, or can’t, dig into all the details. Is that wrong? I don’t know, not really I guess. I am not built that way. I am compelled by my creation to question everything.
spacious maze wrote:Can those folks also accept it when someone
doesn’tbelieve in the church because of faith? No. They often can not. It makes them uneasy and afraid. But the more important question is this — do you let that upset you, and do you absorb that negative energy from them?
spacious maze wrote:Well, I have felt the spirit all my life, in and out of the church, with or without members around me. I think God is everywhere.
I agree. That is also my experience.
spacious maze wrote:And furthermore, I cannot be so arrogant as to think that my faith is greater or less than anyone else’. How can we know if the burning in an LDS’s bosom is greater than a Buddhist or Hindu or Jew ect… ?
I personally don’t think we can say that. What someone experiences … is what they experience. I know people that practice in other faiths, and they are true sources of light in the world. They are closer to God than Mormons I know. I also know very spiritually advanced Mormons. It’s about the person. At least that is my experience.
spacious maze wrote:The LDS church does not hold a distinctive flavor of devoutness to me, nor unique truth. And I see my LDS friends and good folks on this website try so hard to convince themselves that they can refit their testimony after learning more and more, but for me I really just want to trust my gut feeling, my faith.
I think the LDS Church holds a distinctive flavor… and cut it off there. I think it is a very good religion. I think it has a lot of unique and beautiful perspectives. I would even go so far as to say that I think it is the most “true” for me. I like to say it this way though: I believe in the Church, but I don’t believe the Church.
spacious maze wrote:My question is whether or not someone like me should remain? I do not doubt the goodness of the church, just the content of its theology. I have been considering sending in my resignation letter as a reason of honor to the church and myself.
Someone like you should remain if you value trying to find a peaceful and enjoyable use of Mormonism. If you find value, and good, and some light of the divine, then use it and stay. You don’t have to use it all. You don’t have to believe it all. What the heck is the one and only true view of Mormon theology anyway?
If you want some, stay.
spacious maze wrote:This is the reason I’m here anyways, so here it goes. In all my studying, praying, searching and discussions, I have come to feel that there cannot be a true church on this earth.
I agree, Spacious maze, if by ‘true’ you mean 100% godly, or, 100% perfect. If you have read my introduction, then you know that the closest I can come to finding ‘truth’ in this world, is the concept of usefulness. The LDS Church is
useful. spacious maze wrote:I cannot accept that God would place a Heavenly order upon the earth, knowing only a selected few would learn of it, that He would require it to be necessary for salvation and exaltation, that He would hold us as responsible as the angels in heavenly court, that we would be held eternally accountable to its law; and that He would do all these things without lifting the veil. It just seems unjust.
Again, I agree. However, there is more to the story. In the Doctrine & Covenants, God reveals to Joseph that there is a ‘perfect’ Church. This Church has no scheduled meetings, has no buildings, has no hierarchy but one: Jesus Christ Himself, personally. As the only administrator, He is the only one who can introduce us to, and invite us to join, that Church.
What I find fascinating is that Joseph is not the only man, the LDS Church is not the only organization, that knows of this ‘perfect’ Church. Not published in English until 1895, a Catholic, German Rosicrucian by the name of Karl von Eckartshausen also wrote of this Church — the Church of the Firstborn — in his series of letters now called
The Cloud Upon the Sanctuary. I believe it is this church that you seek. spacious maze wrote:A brilliant uncle of mine took it all back to feeling the spirit. The spirits guides us all. Well, I have felt the spirit all my life, in and out of the church, with or without members around me. I think God is everywhere. And furthermore, I cannot be so arrogant as to think that my faith is greater or less than anyone else’. How can we know if the burning in an LDS’s bosom is greater than a Buddhist or Hindu or Jew ect… ? The LDS church does not hold a distinctive flavor of devoutness to me, nor unique truth. And I see my LDS friends and good folks on this website try so hard to convince themselves that they can refit their testimony after learning more and more, but for me I really just want to trust my gut feeling, my faith.
My question is whether or not someone like me should remain? I do not doubt the goodness of the church, just the content of its theology. I have been considering sending in my resignation letter as a reason of honor to the church and myself.
I agree with all of the above.Why should you remain? Because even those who enter the Church of the Firstborn must, for a time, remain in the mortal world. Would you agree that the leavening in the bread serves a
usefulpurpose? Christ needs these few to remain engaged in the outer religions, the outer churches, to breath life into them and to stand as lights to their membership. Lights pointing to something purer, more profound, more ‘true’. Love leads the way, shows us how it is to be done.
HiJolly
HiJolly wrote:Why should you remain? Because even those who enter the Church of the Firstborn must, for a time, remain in the mortal world. Would you agree that the leavening in the bread serves a
usefulpurpose? Christ needs these few to remain engaged in the outer religions, the outer churches, to breath life into them and to stand as lights to their membership. Lights pointing to something purer, more profound, more ‘true’. Love leads the way, shows us how it is to be done.
HiJolly
I agree very closely with Valoel and HiJolly. I want to touch on this part.
I do think that all legit religions contain pointers to the Church of the Firstborn or Oneness with Christ/God/Universe. I think I just read in The Power of Myth the idea that all churches are true if they are living. Our myths are pointers. The LDS church does contain the gospel of Jesus Christ and is actually very wide open for us to utilize.
For me it makes sense to stay LDS because I know the myth language and it resonates with me. It is part of who I am. I can enter into the rest of the Lord without leaving or joining any other outer religion. I enjoy reading spiritual books from outside the LDS faith and find that really beneficial to me.
I also feel that I was called on this journey so that I would be able to help people who found themselves on a similar path. It will be easiest to help people if I stay.
I’m not trying to cling to my old testimony and I’ve never described my journey as a faith crisis. I am trying to walk in the Spirit and follow the Light of Christ where it takes me. So far, it hasn’t led me out of the LDS church (not that I haven’t wondered sometimes). My faith has been transformed. My faith is in Christ/God and not the church.
HiJolly wrote:This Church has no scheduled meetings, has no buildings, has no hierarchy but one: Jesus Christ Himself, personally. As the only administrator, He is the only one who can introduce us to, and invite us to join, that Church.
This statement really struck me. Thanks, HiJolly.
@spaciousmaze:
As someone who did resign, I can tell you a little about my experience, what happened, why.
I was in your exact same place as far as religion goes; I was beginning to understand that ALL organized religion was “man-made”. Plus, I was developing my “belief” in “God” (yes, the quotes are necessary because what that means is a whole other post).
I was determined by many experiences to dedicate my spiritual and service-oriented self to following the teachings of Christ and his example. This was partly practical (having my entire social and lifestyle circle being christian) and partly spiritual (having felt what I interpreted as the “light of Christ” work in me/through me, being confirmed by the intellectual message of Christ).
Having made this decision deliberately, I felt comfortable going to church, participating, etc. I was an EQ teacher and felt it necessary to share this view with the EQ president. He was ok with it as he’s a very Christ-centered person too. However, the next week at church he told me that I would be released.
Within weeks of that, the Prop 8 stuff crashed down. Having had some time to follow versions of my “guide” through various iterations, when this hit, it became obvious to me that I would choose to follow Christ, rather than the church. In my heart, I couldn’t be affiliated with an organization that was so openly rejecting Christ. In my mind, I couldn’t accept that the church was infringing upon the very constitutional ideal that protects their own freedom.
My choices were: 1) never go to church again or 2) resign, so that I could continue to go as a visitor with my family.
And this, of course, is where I had happen to me exactly what the above quote was describing: I was joining the “one true church”, wherein I’m the only member and Christ is literally my guide. I even remember the moment: In describing it all to my bishop, giving him my resignation, I summed it up by saying, “I now lay my life and my salvation squarely in the hands of Christ”.
Though I had thought these things before, I hadn’t believed them to that extreme. And that’s the epiphany I want to share: that being willing to forsake all for Christ, especially our intellect, can be an amazing place. I don’t worry about the church anymore, or it’s history, or it’s theology (though I still like arguing about it cause it’s too fun).
I do worry about staying present so that I can be ready to listen to that light inside me, lead me, guide me, give me unconditional love and acceptance.
I feel that this journey that I’ve chosen is heading in the “right” direction: I’m finding strength and satisfaction both spiritually and intellectually, which was never quite possible before. I’m gaining emotional health, which I NEVER had before. And I’m experiencing levels of love, joy, happiness, peace, acceptance and intimacy which I never dreamed was possible.
I don’t think that one has to resign from the church, as I did, to find this. We all have our journey. But by being truly open and honest with ourselves, with “God”, and especially with those around us, we begin to open the path to reach our true potential.
Sorry for the sermon to anyone who actually slogged through it: NOW YOU DON’T HAVE TO GO TO CHURCH TOMORROW, YEAHHHH!!!!!
😆 😆 Wow, thanks so much everyone. I’m really touched by your personal stories and thoughts on your faith. This really helps. I am a patient man, and the choice is a ways away. It’s good to share these thoughts will all of you. I just want to give a huge thank you to each of you for the lives you are seeking to live in wonder and love. Those of you who have posted in this thread are making StayLDS.com a work of heaven. I never expected to read such apt replies to Spacious Maze’s question, and I feel a kindred brotherhood with each of you. Tom Haws
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