The Problem of Evil & Free Will

I also loved taking religion and philosophy classes in college. And, like you, I found that too much philosophy makes HiJolly a dull boy.

There are a couple of things. First, the distinction between ‘will not’ and ‘cannot’; Second, in order to make a true (or, useful) logical statement, all propositions (or, postulates) must be 100% true. If the topic is God, then good luck with that! Everybody pretty much fails before they begin.

I enjoyed philosophy because it taught me to truly see other people’s points of view, and consider them equally to my own. The guild was off the lily, though, when I found that they would not allow for God in their reasoning. Catch-22, considering my second point in the previous paragraph.

HiJolly

I guess the question I have is this: does the Church teach that God is omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipresent? If it does, how? If it doesn’t, which character trait(s) is the problem?

I believe God is all those things, but not every god is.

The Church has chosen to address the ‘nature of god’ in terms of His manifest qualities. IOW, the view of God as without body, parts or passions, without body, without place in the universe— is not the God Mormonism addresses. This is generally true, though in D&C 88 and 93 we see some exception to this. Nevertheless, in church the view is primarily of the physical, resurrected and glorified God, not the ‘unchanging ineffible’ God. I think both views have merit, personally.

We are seeing some transition from the ‘progressing’ God to the unchanging God, but it is a bit sporadic, in my opinion.

Here are the 10 Kabbalistic character traits of Godliness, in order:

The Crown

Wisdom

Understanding

Bounteousness; Steadfast Love; Mercy (all the same thing)

Judgement; Truth

Beauty; Balance; the Son

Victory; the will; emotion

Splendor; reason; intellect

Foundation; Power; Formation

Kingdom; the World

HiJolly

@wordsleuth23

Okay, I see where you’re headed. I feel like I can talk about free will and determinism and evil without talking about God, so I was missing the connection, but I got it now.

I don’t think the church would deny those attributes of God’s character. I also think it might be a long, complicated, explanation to answer your questions, that ends with “we don’t really know.” I certainly don’t think God is a puppet master, nor do I think God is somehow responsible for the tragedies. I also am a combatibilist but I admittedly don’t know where determinism ends and libertarianism begins and vice versa. I can’t explain the relationship between the two but in a metaphysical sense I feel there are both aspects at play.

I understand the conundrum you are asking about, but the most honest thing for me (because of your arguments in large measure) is to admit uncertainty in it all. It’s a little weird for me though. It’s like this. Some person has some impression of the nature of God. Some of us agree on a few things so we invent this god who has these attributes and accept them as the basic axioms of God’s nature. But now we’ve created a whole slew of problems and questions to explain things that go on in this life. We banter back and forth, create all kinds of organizations, theologies, philosophies, values, morals, etc. There’s all kinds of logical conflicts with our creation, but rather than question the very assumptions we made at the beginning, we try to shoehorn our god into our world. That’s the question I hear, “how do I shoehorn the god I’ve created into the world we live in”?

I realize you’re sort of asking this from the church’s point of view, so I’m not referencing you directly here. I just don’t think there’s any point in me even trying to explain it because as you’ve so aptly pointed out there are all kinds of logical problems. Hence I question the basic assumption, “does god exist”? Well, I dunno, but I’d like to think there’s something out there, but I don’t know what.

You’ve all made good points. I agree, that at the end of the day, there aren’t concrete answers to the question, but It is fun to think about–at least to me. It is one of the few aspects of philosophy that really interested me. An active, devout Mormon, BYU philosophy professor David Poulsen, has written a very good paper about this issue from Mormon perspective (if you’re interested, just google his name and the problem of evil).

I’ll play the simple philosopher tonight.

My belief system allows that “God” is omni-everything, evil exists and free will is literally never tampered with.

In fact, without free will there would be no evil.

The force that allows free will is determining an evolutionary-type existence: darwinian in a simple context. Any force that would control the free will of humans, would also set up the “system” by which that force would be defined as “good”, therefore because that force was all-powerful, completely dominant, there would be no “evil”.

In my mind (trust me, you don’t want to go there), the only “problem” with evil and free will is a presumption of an active “force”, “God” or a sometimes tinkering God, or whatever. Why can’t God be completely and utterly hands off? If God can do anything, why not create the system for us to experience life, grow, progress, learn, interact, love, and just let the system work?

This may be a bad analogy so someone come up with a better one: once you’ve built the perfect house of cards, the last thing you want to do is touch it. You just sit back, try not to breath too hard and enjoy your handiwork, warts and all.

Am I crossing some line by expressing the belief that “God” will literally never intervene with anything?

I really like where you are, in these comments. As for the analogy, I don’t think the universe is going to fall apart like a house of cards. But more, I disagree, sort of, with your last thought.

I do think that the transcendent and eternal and unchanging God, outside of manifestation, does act as you have outlined, with the exception of His Light, which fills and interacts with the universe. But I think the ‘lesser’ intelligences that are growing, learning, progressing toward godhood and such in that Light, do intervene when they get to the point of being able to do so. But they know that if they interfere with agency, they will digress. So they usually don’t. Unless they can get some other, more foolish intelligence to do it for them…

Just my 2½ cents.

HiJolly

I really like where you are, in these comments. As for the analogy, I don’t think the universe is going to fall apart like a house of cards. But more, I disagree, sort of, with your last thought.

I do think that the transcendent and eternal and unchanging God, outside of manifestation, does act as you have outlined, with the exception of His Light, which fills and interacts with the universe. But I think the ‘lesser’ intelligences that are growing, learning, progressing toward godhood and such in that Light, do intervene when they get to the point of being able to do so. But they know that if they interfere with agency, they will digress. So they usually don’t. Unless they can get some other, more foolish intelligence to do it for them…

Just my 2½ cents.

I guess your “lesser” intelligences are us individuals? I understand that all of us individually has a “light” that is “God”, thus making us each individually a “God in Training” (is there a bumper sticker in this?). If this is so, I don’t think “Gods in Training” count in my analogy. Rather, they would be the cards/part of the cards, not the actual “builder”.

Are you saying that you can’t separate the “builder” from the “intelligences”? Because if you are, I have alot of thinking to do so I can recover my plastic amateur junior philosopher badge.

Upon writing the above sentence, I had the epiphany that that is exactly what you’re saying. Correct me if I’m wrong. I’m thinking “out loud”. 😆

And I see how that could work. It definitely helps explain the opposite of miracles: horrific human caused crime and/or random natural calamities/disasters. It also imagines in the right way, how important it is for humans to interact appropriately and engage community beneficially and healthfully.

And it sounds super-libertarian so I really, really, like it. 😆

Thanks, HiJolly, I think you have a convert! 😈