Still struggling in stage 4: Selfish justifications are evil

I haven’t had the best of days lately…and so I wanted to put my thoughts down in hopes I can get some support or guidance that might help me. [Warning: When I start that way…I can sense a large post is coming… 😯 sorry for that…but I just need to try to express myself.]

I’m so glad that you can, Heber13! I really believe in the goodness of a community that can hear, respond, and not feel threatened nor threatening. Love it!

There are times I can’t seem to let go of wanting to go back to my stage 3 confident faith in the LDS church, where I felt I was on a path to being a better person, and there seemed to be callings and inspirational church teachings that reconfirmed my footsteps that I was doing good.

Me too. I felt the same way when as a child I found out that some people didn’t like me and didn’t mind hurting me. I wanted a world where I was safe. It never returned to me, though I have found safe places and safe people. If I am cautious, anyway…

But I don’t think I can go back there anymore. So I have tried to tell myself by being in Stage 4 and letting go of some things, I am becoming a better person, just along a new path. But I am still ashamed to let others know how I feel (wife, kids, siblings, bishop). In my younger years, I would describe someone acting like I’m acting as a person without a strong enough testimony, not enough faith, and too selfish to let God lead me back to obedience and safety within the church. I think others will undoubtedly think that of me if I opened up.

I hope you can find a way to change the feeling of shame into something else. Thanks to the Lord for bearing witness to me over and over and over that I actually *am* on the ‘right’ path (even as I journey through stage 3 >> 4 >> 5 >> 4 >> 5 (etc.)!!

At first I feared that this was just my own humanity (the ‘natural man’) trying to justify my own screwed up beliefs. But as I said, over time too many witnesses were given me that there was more to it than just my own faults. I take it slow, don’t shake anyone up by blurting out things that shouldn’t be shared. And I have found that despite my doubts, it is truly usually for the sake of the loved ones around me that I don’t blurt things out. I think, though, that this sense of ‘rightness’ must be an individual reality, and not just a self-induced justification. As I said, the Lord helped me through it all, in a very subtle way.

…more comments but gotta go for now…

HiJolly

Wow, Heber! Wow!

I’m humbled by your honesty and deeply felt “struggle”. I’m also happy that you can express that here.

And, I’m happy that you are having this struggle. It feels painful because you’ve lost something that had given you happiness and satisfaction. That’s normal and we all go through it. At least, I know that I did. You are in mourning and are allowing us to “mourn with those who mourn”. Thank you for that.

I had a rant/post in another thread about how we become emotionally dependent on the church, it’s teachings, it’s community, it’s leaders and that’s normal because when you are striving to be active, the cycle of sacrifice/reward is active.

My guess is that you’ve moved past this stage. The “sacrifice” does not justify the “reward”. Either in a literal, spiritual or emotional sense. I imagine it’s mostly the emotional, as you express confidently your joy in literal service to your community peers and spiritual satisfaction with the doctrinal/cosmological/mystical aspects.

The path to long term emotional health is like any other; it’s a life-long journey of ups and downs.

The most important aspect of this journey is to embrace oneself, as the good, charitable, loving, caring self that one is.

Why can’t I let go of my feelings that because I’m not a part of the ward and living obediently to things that don’t spiritually effect me, I’m not being a good enough person?

Heber, you are a good person. You need to know that and I hope that you let yourself believe it, and believe it deeply.

Your goodness can be your guide. As I embraced the good in me and tried to live with this “light” as my guide, I discovered that I was tapping into the same spiritual sensibility I felt previously in a different paradigm. For example, on my mission I was the 100% devoted to the work type. I lived almost entirely off of this “light”, at the time I defined it as the Holy Ghost. And it was satisfying and REAL.

As a father, I’ve been trying to parent in this way for the last year+ and am having amazing experiences, similar to my mission that are equally satisfying and REAL. Though I now define it differently than before.

My point is that in my process, I discovered that I had to be true to the “light” inside me. I knew and God knew that I wouldn’t do anything to offend Him whether through disobedience or hurting another human being. At least, not intentionally when following the “light”. I’m not perfect and I can make amends when I need to, knowing my intentions and motivations were not “bad”.

And, of course, I let go of all of the “additional” rules, policies, whatever and have been trying to live by the two great commandments, letting my “light” guide me in all other respects.

The key for me, and I guess that it might be a part of you, was to let go of the emotional dependency. The need to feel validated, either by external people (loved ones, church leaders) or internal “voice” (ambition, devotion, “doing what I know is right”) is a powerful emotional force.

And when you throw parenting into the mix… it’s tough, very tough.

And then my worries snowball, and I worry my kids will see my lack of diligence, follow my example of not trying in church or making sacrifices personally, and if they head down a path of sin and destruction…those sins would be on my head.

I posted a while back, that I wish one of my parents had given me a sense that there are other ways of seeing things. My whole upbringing was uber-orthodox TBM. There was no questioning, ever, no discussion of maybe, all answers, all solutions, no “problems”. So if I had a question, doubt, concern, feeling that wasn’t in line, it was MY fault: I was the problem, I wasn’t good enough, I wasn’t righteous enough, I wasn’t sacrificing enough, I wasn’t praying enough, I wasn’t reading the BoM enough, etc.

I became an emotional cripple by adulthood.

I could only manufacture good feelings about myself by being “perfect” and getting external validation of this “perfection”. Which, of course, is impossible and so I would be left in my emotionally crippled state. I actually let myself believe that I wasn’t a good person.

I know that I am trying to show an example to my children of following Christ’s teachings by living what I KNOW Christ’s teachings are; not the church’s teachings per se, but specifically Christ’s teachings. And following my “light”. And expressing doubt, not knowing everything, not being so damn sure all the time.

Fortunately or unfortunately, this also requires honesty, to oneself and to those around one. That path will began to illuminate itself over time.

Guilt is appropriate when we’ve done something to offend God. And we know when that is. Really.

Shame is never appropriate; it is a feeling we manufacture in ourselves when responding to someone/something that we are emotionally dependent on. If we weren’t emotionally dependent on the “other” and instead gain all of our emotional health from inside, we will never feel shame, for we know that what we do is always with the appropriate intention and motivation.

Sorry for the novel. btw, disregard all of this if it doesn’t work for you. I hope my sharing it will help me in my journey, and if it helps someone else, YEAAHHH!!!

Wow, Heber! Wow!

I’m humbled by your honesty and deeply felt “struggle”. I’m also happy that you can express that here.

…

Shame is never appropriate; it is a feeling we manufacture in ourselves when responding to someone/something that we are emotionally dependent on. If we weren’t emotionally dependent on the “other” and instead gain all of our emotional health from inside, we will never feel shame, for we know that what we do is always with the appropriate intention and motivation.

Sorry for the novel. btw, disregard all of this if it doesn’t work for you. I hope my sharing it will help me in my journey, and if it helps someone else, YEAAHHH!!!

Wow. swimordie, you are awesome. Your comments feel MUCH better than my responses.

Bless you!

HiJolly

“Wow. swimordie, you are awesome. Your comments feel MUCH better than my responses.”

I must respectfully disagree, HiJolly. While I was equally impressed with swimordie and Rix and their comments…I needed to hear yours as well. Especially this part:

At first I feared that this was just my own humanity (the ‘natural man’) trying to justify my own screwed up beliefs. But as I said, over time too many witnesses were given me that there was more to it than just my own faults. I take it slow, don’t shake anyone up by blurting out things that shouldn’t be shared. And I have found that despite my doubts, it is truly usually for the sake of the loved ones around me that I don’t blurt things out. I think, though, that this sense of ‘rightness’ must be an individual reality, and not just a self-induced justification. As I said, the Lord helped me through it all, in a very subtle way.

1. I’m glad to hear you received witnesses…that is what I need and what I will seek.

2. Thanks for the experience-based advice on holding on to doubts not blurting them to my precious loved ones…that is sound advice

3. I need to be warned against “self-induced justication” and have faith God will help me find what is right FOR ME.

Just go slow, and endure and plead to the Lord for things to get better, is the best advice I can give.

The “best advice”, indeed! Thanks. (RRRRGGGG…slow is not easy for me). But I certainly do need to build my trust in the Lord…after having been left alone for a time…I need to still know it was for my good and I can still trust in receiving witnesses going forward.

Swimordie…first, let me say, I was waiting for a book reference on codepedency from you…did you get tired of referencing that??? I know you have learned a lot from that, and I think something I need to learn…I appreciate your posts and your take…I knew this was something you could help me with. Thanks buddy!

And, I’m happy that you are having this struggle.

I could’ve done without that! LOL…just kidding. I got your drift and appreciate the sentiments. I sense you believe it will prove a positive growing experience for me. But PLEASE don’t pray for added trials for Heber for my benefit right now…I’ve got all I can handle.

You are in mourning and are allowing us to “mourn with those who mourn”.

On a more serious reponse to you…Thank you sincerely for this. I felt a warm sense of love come over me when I read this…and got choaked up. I don’t know why it matters to me to read those words and have it impact me…but I guess because I know you from this site…and know you sincerely feel this way…it meant a lot to have me read that. Thanks. Again, thanks.

Your goodness can be your guide. As I embraced the good in me and tried to live with this “light” as my guide, I discovered that I was tapping into the same spiritual sensibility I felt previously in a different paradigm.

Thanks for your wisdom. I will take this to heart and learn to apply what you’ve mastered already.

Guilt is appropriate when we’ve done something to offend God. And we know when that is. Really.

Shame is never appropriate; it is a feeling we manufacture in ourselves when responding to someone/something that we are emotionally dependent on. If we weren’t emotionally dependent on the “other” and instead gain all of our emotional health from inside, we will never feel shame, for we know that what we do is always with the appropriate intention and motivation.

I needed to hear this. I think you have hit on something that I need to be aware of and work on. Something that shows my immaturity in some areas, that if I can fix or figure out, will lead to greater peace with my situation. Perhaps something the Lord knew I wouldn’t learn if things stayed the way they were in my prior paradigm.

With that validation comes a misinterpretation of why they “feel good.” It’s simply fulfilling the craving they think they need to be okay. Drugs give the same, temporary relief. It’s only when you learn to find the validation within that you can heal.

Equally impressive, Rix. I see the parallel with drug dependence and the temporary “fix” – whereas I need to focus on long-term health and happiness.

If it helps at all, I personaly admire you greatly, Heber.

Yes, it helps, knowing that comes from you. Thanks Ray. An warm example of how a simple pat on the back can be of worth…even when you know you can’t fix my problems or walk my path for me.

Very good counsel for me to ponder. I will let this all sit with me for a while and think through how I think I should move forward to find how I can make it work for me and apply it in my life. Any other input from anyone is welcomed and appreciated. Thanks…this is how it should feel … despite my weaknesses, I can feel supported by good people and we all learn from each other. I believe that is what Christ taught. I am grateful I have found it here.

Oh gosh! I am coming to the support Heber party late! And as I read I find myself saying…”Shoot. I was gonna say that!”

So I will just give my best answer and hope it might help in some way.

I read your post Heber and I feel like you outlined so many of my feelings during this past two years. I didn’t want my kids to see my struggle. I didn’t want them to see me as a spiritually weak example. I struggled with how I saw and felt about myself as I wrestled with whether or not this church was worth my support and also dealing with my self as I honestly took a look in the mirror. I also had some woundedness in the mix and I knew I needed some time to heal and I wasn’t sure mormon culture was the most healing of environments. At least not for me.

I was worried to tell the bishop about my concerns in my TR interview a couple of months back. It was so hard to say that I didn’t know if there was a Jesus and that I didn’t know if Tom Monson was anything other than a figure head and a really nice grandpa. But I learned something in that interview that really helped me. My bishop was new…green as grass and frankly didn’t know what to do with my heart felt responses. I scared him pretty good. (small laugh) Sufficeth to say, he didn’t give me the temple recommend. He said he would go home and pray. I knew that was the wrong thing because I felt it spiritually inside my heart/head and I left feeling like the bishop wasn’t listening to the Spirit because the spirit was telling me to get my butt to the temple. He called me back in after a week and said that he was humbled by what the Lord had taught him and that he shouldn’t underestimate what people had been through. (not saying it well. His version was a lot more profound). He gave me the recommend and apologized and said that he had learned a lesson in being more understanding and empathetic and that God had taught him something about what is really in the heart of people.

I know Heavenly Father took me into my journey into the doctrinal wilderness. You can bash me for saying “I know” but I do. He is the one who told me to leave the church for a time and to unwind some of my programming and false notions about the gospel and about myself and about my relationship to God.

Most of the early steps of my journey was dominated my shame and guilt. But I have learned to be a lot kinder to myself. And so I second S’s comments on shame. I had to learn to give myself permission to banish shame every single time it copped its ugly head and absolutely refuse to think that way even though it was my mormon habit! I learned it was never from God and never served me even when I needed a reprimand. I also learned that it was OK to question and re evaluate and even pendulem swing in order to find the place I would finally land. Sometimes the swinging made me look like a complete and total apostate, but I really think God was Ok with that and even pushed me off the platform. I think God knew that the distance of the swing wouldn’t determine where I would land, but rather help me find the resting center. And its proving to be very true. At least that is my experience.

And I am also learning that wandering in the wilderness is only helpful for so long. There comes a time when the effectiveness wheres off and one needs to move to some resting decisions and commitments. I have felt the Lord nudge me lovingly when it was time. And I have felt His patience as it sometimes takes me a few months to do what I know I should. And I do feel now, after lots of struggle and disciplining of myself both in the ways of seeing the truth in new ways, but in also going back to what I knew in the first place, that I am finding peace and strength in my new foundation. I thought it would feel like coming home. It doesn’t really. Or maybe I feel like I am coming home to myself and finally learning to be true to myself and my God without all the external pushing and pulling.

Now, you know I haven’t arrived. But then again, maybe arrivals are over rated.

Add my heart to those who respect and appreciate you and your perspectives. You are a very good person from what I see. What about your process would make you a bad person? Its not like you are robbing old ladies or anything! So tell Satan to “get thee hence” and out of your process and give yourself permission to explore where you need to and also maybe to adjust your life so that you feel right about your twists and turns. If there is laziness or pride or whatever, you can address that in love and patience and appropriateness. Maybe adjust your obedience like you’d adjust ship….two degrees this way but not too much. And then give yourself lots of patience and love and understanding as you move forward and as you trust God to lead you by the hand.

As I read step four, I really feel like the power of discernment is such an important tool to put in our religious tool belts. How wonderful to have the Spirit working in us so that it isn’t the “church” or “church people” or cultural notions that dictate truth, and so we can identify the truth when we hear/discover it — even in its many layers.

So, buck up little camper! It’s all good. And you have way cool friends. I mean, look at all of us!!

Hugs from Pops.

Codependency. I desire to learn more about this.

If you’re sincere about this, get ready for a real ride! For one thing, there are many definitions of codependency…so without reading a few descriptions, it can be quite confusing (maybe a better way to say that is when you DO read about each definition, it may confuse you even more!). “Codependency” started in the drug/alcohol recovery field. Melody Beattie wrote the book that most of us druggies trying to get well had to read called “Codependent No More.” It’s a great place to start. But I’ll tell you that most read her descriptions and think to ourselves “but that’s what we do when we love somebody!”

And of course there is some truth to that. But we must each find our healthy boundaries as it relates to relationships. As parents, we are natural enablers to our children. The question becomes how and when do we cut the umbilical chord? When we don’t, both parties become “sick.” One definition I find helpful is:

“As adults, codependent people have a greater tendency to get involved in relationships with people who are perhaps unreliable, emotionally unavailable, or needy. And the codependent person tries to provide and control everything within the relationship without addressing their own needs or desires; setting themselves up for continued unfulfillment.”

I personally like to define it as “when a person’s well-being depends on the outcomes of another’s behaviors.”

Fast-forward to religion…particularly Mormonism. We are taught to have “stewardship” over many people; our families, our HTing families, our ward members (as leaders), and so on. Then we go on missions and charged to convert people there. We spend so much time and effort on others that we tend to disregard our own needs. To an extent, “spirituality” is experienced only when serving others. That leaves out a whole segment of spiritual experience! Some of my most sacred spiritual experiences have been while I was alone in nature.

To top it off, there is a common tendency to consider self-improving activities as “selfish,” a negative trait in the church culture.

So the point is (I hope), that when we live for another’s outcomes in life, we set ourselves up for disappointment, since we only can totally control ourselves. Others are different than we are, and they will have different ways of thinking and doing life. That results in disappointment and depression. It is only when we learn to truly put ourselves first, and not feel the least bit guilty about doing so, that we can find our ultimate bliss.

That’s the start….

OMGOSH! I just reread my post. Did I really just tell a grown man to “buck up little camper”? Oh dear.

Heber, if you need to dump a bucket of water over my head, please do. In fact here, let me give you a big one! I filled it for you already.

😳 ( shaking my head)

You’re fine, poppyseed. You’ve been a good friend to encourage me. But I draw the line at you never being able to call me “L’il buckaroo”, ok?