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“Well let me say something about that group …of people who have encountered a lot of problems and are disturbed, they don’t know quite what they believe anymore. Maybe they’re angry and want to dump the prophet [Joseph] entirely.It’s very easy to feel in a situation like that that you’re “outside” the church, that you’ve somehow marginalized yourself. You may even get excommunicated, or people cast dispersions on your sincerity or your morality, or all sorts of other things and one way or another you feel like you’re not IN the church anymore. I for one don’t believe that, I think Mormonism is not just Home Teaching and Bishopric meeting – it’s all these individual souls wrestling with the scriptures, with God, with their own souls, trying to find out what’s right and true; and doing that sort-of in this overall Mormon context.
I think people who are struggling – maybe obsessed with these questions to some extent – are showing us a kind of worship and devotion that is deeply Mormon. I mean who is more committed to the prophet Joseph Smith than Dan Vogel? Think of the millions of hours that he’s spent with very little reward on the prophet’s documents, on his life. And even though we think of him as an antagonist, and probably an atheist when it comes to religion, still he is engaged to Joseph Smith – and there’s a kind of a devotion there that I for one think has to be respected. So while the institutional church may have to protect itself and cut these people off – and label them as agnostics – I think, you know looking at it from God’s point of view, that these people are really struggling souls. Some may be really evil, some may really be trying to harm and destroy, but I think there are a lot that are just trying to find out what they think is right.
So I hope none of them feel like they’re outside of Mormonism. They can’t be outside of Mormonism as long as they think about Joseph Smith, that puts them inside of the Mormon cultural boundaries, and that’s of great importance.”
(Mormon Stories, Richard Bushman part 5, 17:04 – 19:38)
Thank you Orson I have listened to the Richard Bushman interviews on my ipod, I think the full set twice now, but strangely I have never gone to the website (OK, I’m back). So clearly the text isn’t available at the website, does this mean that you are listening and then typing the stuff out? I really appreciate the material whatever the source. Thanks. I know that he mentions Dan Vogel in the quote but it seems to me it applies just as well to D.Michael Quinn, I am just in the midst of Mormon Hierarchy and it is clear that a lot of research went into the book.
Anyway, thanks for this.
Bill Atkinson wrote:…does this mean that you are listening and then typing the stuff out?
Yup, that’s what I do. This is why it is very limited and only my most favorite sections.
Glad you enjoy them!
I love this. Thanks. This makes me wonder what would happen if I played a Mormon Stories podcast into my Google Voice account. Would it transcribe the whole thing? 
Orson wrote:So I hope none of them feel like they’re outside of Mormonism. They can’t be outside of Mormonism as long as they think about Joseph Smith, that puts them inside of the Mormon cultural boundaries, and that’s of great importance.” [/color]
(Mormon Stories, Richard Bushman part 5, 17:04 – 19:38)
Very interesting viewpoint! From that perspective, many Mormon scholars would be considered “Mormon,” including (Uncle) Dale (Broadhurst) who has probably spent more time studying Joseph Smith than anybody I know…along with Rigdon, Spalding, Cowdery, et al. He IS one who considers himself a great admirer of Joseph, even though his current view (I believe, since I haven’t talked to him in a while) is that the BoM was compiled by these men. But, I think Dale would be fine to call himself “Mormon” just as Bushman describes it here.
Thanks for this!
Orson, this is a great section from Bushman. I am currently reading Rough Stone Rolling, and I like Bushman. He has a way of just putting things out there and not “fearing” what the facts are, yet he doesn’t seem to indicate lack of support or faith for the church, but is open minded to realize truth will stand on its own. I have certainly felt this way…I’m not trying to be rebellious by studying things outside of normal church approved material, but I don’t fear what I read. I think I can read things and make up my own mind what I believe, not only read the stuff the church wants me to read, or only hear arguments that favor the church.
I like the idea that there should be tolerance in the church for multiple views on church history or God’s teachings (kind of like this forum). Clearly, others don’t know how to accommodate, because there is the opinion that intellectuals or liberal thinkers are not as faithful or devoted as most people in Mormon culture. I also think some intellectuals and progressive thinkers create their own problems and perpetuate these sterotypes by being prideful in how they conduct themselves or go on the attack with their beliefs.
Hello Kind Orson. I like the perspective of the OP. I like the generous view of accepting people where they are. I think this is perhap what the church tried to do when they encouraged us to stop using labels like “inactive” or “less active”, not that that helped with a complete paradigm shift. And I don’t think this closes opportunities for invitations……invitations to come to Christ in various ways. If we LDS believe in Eternal progression, then this concept shouldn’t be too hard to swallow as learning line upon line is our focus. I think our problem is that we get so comfortable inside the standard for how this is all accomplished that it closes our minds in unloving ways. But I see that God is not fettered by such limits in His thinking. Nor do I think that stops Him from being bold in his loving nudges to the narrow path. At least this very much illustrates what seems to be happening with me. I feel that God has met me exactly where I was. He let me be there without shame or reproach. But then, when it was time, he invited me forward.
And thank you again Heber for another great post. I love the self trust. I love how you study without fear. I think this is the essence of gaining knowledge and being taught by God. By study and by faith. God can teach us truth from error and we can trust ourselves too. I actually think God wants us to learn how to do both. I mean, I ain’t no dumb bunny!
Great post Orson! Mormonism teaches that we are the gathering of Israel in the “Latter Days.” Jacob was given a new name by God after having wrestled with an angel (or God). He was given the new name Israel, Ysra(to struggle, contend) El(a name for God, E-source), which means “He who struggles with God.” I take comfort in that definition. Who then is a member of Israel if not those who strive to know, who question, and who wrestle with doubts … even their angels?
I just wanted to bump this thread from the archives, as we’ve had some discussion recently on feeling “outside the church” or feelings of struggling with things. Orson started a good thread on this topic.
Thanks Heber – You may have done it just for me. I am so weary, heartbroken, confused and lost. Added to that I am bed ridden and on medication, so the world and my place in it feels really dark. Bushman’s viewpoint is a comfort. I may be outside of traditional members view point, but maybe not so to God. Right now I will hope that is true.
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