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This is a spin off from the Role of Women thread. We have touched upon prayer and who it is we pray to. We are taught that we pray to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ and that anything else is just plain wrong. I think that making the distinction so firm is a disservice to God and ourselves. They are One, there is no need to divide them. I am going to put forth just some of the scriptural examples of praying to Jehovah-Jesus Christ or that the Son is the Eternal Father.
D&C 109 is the Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer. It is opened to “the Lord God of Isreal” and the name Jehovah is used 4 times and LORD is used about 15 times.
D&C 109:79 And also this church, to put upon it
thy name. (which would be the name of Christ) We are aware that Jehovah (the God of the Old Testament) is Jesus Christ. Here is a blurb from the
OT institute manualSo all the OT patriarchs and prophets prayed to and worshipped the God of Isreal, Jehovah. They were commanded to do so.
The Book of Mormon also makes a case for Jesus Christ being our creator and Eternal God. The one God we worship.
The preface states that “Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God.” This repeats in 2 Nephi 26:12
Mosiah 3:8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning;
Mosiah 3:17 states in part “the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.”
This chapter also states that He will come among “his people” and sent “his prophets” and the “Lord God saw that his people were stiffnecked.”
I think Mosiah 5 is excellent to show that covenants are made with Christ. We become the children of Christ and that he is the Lord God Omnipotent.
Mosiah 13:28 And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which
God himselfshall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses. There are several places in the BoM that have been changed from the original which read “that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father.” Our books currently read “that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father.” I really don’t know where the authority came from to make these changes.
1 Nephi 11:18 (original version) And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh.
Alma 11:38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;
40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.
D&C 65:4 Pray unto the Lord, call upon his holy name, make known his wonderful works among the people.
D&C 37:2 And again, I say unto you that ye shall not go until ye have preached my gospel in those parts, and have strengthened up the church whithersoever it is found, and more especially in Colesville; for, behold, they pray unto me in much faith.
D&C 6:22 seems to indicate that Oliver was praying in his heart to Jesus Christ, the Son of God. This chapter also says that we are to “ask of me.” Read the whole thing, but especially vs. 21-23. I especially love that Jesus refers to them as “his sons” in this chapter.
Now, all these scriptures lead me to believe that we do pray to our Eternal Father who
isour Redeemer. It also makes a very strong case for Jesus Christ as the One and Only Heavenly Father. If that is true, Heavenly Father did not send someone else to save his children from the Fall. He came for us. He participated in his own creation. He loves us that much. What do you think? Does anyone have references to
whywe have to make a clear distinction between HF and JC? If praying to Jehovah is so wrong why was it done for thousands of years (including by Joseph Smith)? Well just me you certainly do know how to start things 
First let me say that I am going to copy your post and put it into my journal (which is in electronic form since I can type almost as fast as I can think so I find that very useful) because it is a fabulous resource for this topic.
Now onto the hard stuff:
Quote:Now, all these scriptures lead me to believe that we do pray to our Eternal Father who is our Redeemer. It also makes a very strong case for Jesus Christ as the One and Only Heavenly Father. If that is true, Heavenly Father did not send someone else to save his children from the Fall. He came for us. He participated in his own creation. He loves us that
First let me say that I personally don’t really distinguish between HF and JC when praying expect when I do a vocal prayer, somehow that triggers a “Heavenly Father” starting point. I try to hold a kind of conversation with “the Lord” but actually I pretty consciously direct myself at the Holy Ghost as I think she/he is right there anyway.
However we have a few points: 1. Joseph Smith’s first vision where he saw Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, in spite of all the academic-perfectionist-you-have-to-get-it-exactly-right-the-first-time worries, I have a firm testimony that Joseph did see those two members of the Godhead and that the Holy Ghost was the person who was infusing him with the capacity to withstand and comprehend the event.
2. Christ’s death: it doesn’t make much sense for him to be praying to himself in “My God, My God why has thou forsaken me?”
3. Christ’s baptism and the approval and testimony by Heavenly Father.
However I don’t mind if I am praying to Jehovah/Jesus Christ who is at once my brother and because of His sacrifice my father.
Hmm, I know that Van Hale has done a lot of musing about the nature of God, I will try and find some of his stuff and bring it to this conversation in the next day or two.
This is quite the facinating topic. I know there are the scriptures where men did pray to Jesus, and I know we are taught to pray to Heavenly Father. However, somehow, and it’s probably the way I pray, in my spiritual construct, how I see things and where I put them, God the Father stands supreme; He is the big Daddy. Jesus on the other hand is just some guy that we hear about at church. Except for the fact that our sins are washed in Christ’s blood, I for some reason give The Father the credit for it all, and Jesus somehow stands on the sidelines almost forgotton by me.
My relationship is with the father. I have an almost non-relationship with Christ, although I have been born again. I know how it is supposed to be by the book, but my mind hasn’t conformed. In my spiritual persuit I try to please The Father. I don’t know where Jesus is. I don’t think that I am on a wrong road here, I just haven’t developed yet.
I pray a lot that I might have that relationship with Jesus but it hasn’t happened as fast as I would like it to. I am growing, I’m patient and I know my prayers are heard.
I do not believe that God the Father and Jesus are one in matter, substance, and form. I could pray to Jesus but I think what’s the point? I’ve got a Father.
Very astute observation, but don’t get too far ahead of yourself (selves) Mormons pray to their Father in Heaven and close in the name of Jesus Christ. Protestants pray to “Jesus.”
But, you’re right, the whole Doctrine & Covenants is Joseph Smith talking with, praying to and being instructed by Jesus Christ. So the question is, did subsequent Prophets also pray and speak with Jesus? After all, it is his Church, right?
So, when we hear our General Authorities pray in conference, or any of the Quorum of the Twelve, or even the President, do they pray to Jesus. Well, no, they don’t.
Is the President praying to Christ in the temple, at home, in his office? Apparently Joseph Smith did.
You’ve opened a conundrum.
Consider the possibility that in a patriarchal linage, praying to the Father, in the name of the son might, at times be delegated to a third party whose direct love/concern/responsible might be via direct family ties. In meditative prayer, while trying to discern my “still small
voices“, I believe I have sensed different personalities at various different times. I attribute this to dead, or possibly not yet born family members. For example, I have specifically sensed my mothers father from time to time. I’m grateful for my “guardian angles”, whom I think sometimes provide answers to my prayers, and whom I image also petition the Father in my behalf. Especially in those times that one set of foot prints are all that is visible in the sand.
Very interesting topic! In addition to your BofM and D&C verses, here are some Biblical verses which also seem to indicate that Jesus is to be the one we pray to. Some are instances of people praying to Jesus, and others are instances of Jesus equating himself with the God whom people pray to.
>Acts 7:59, Stephen prays to Jesus…59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
>John 20:28, Thomas refers to Jesus as his God…27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
>John 10:30-33, Jesus begins by saying…30 I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
>John 8:5858Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(COMPARE WITH)
>Exodus 3:1414And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
It is clear from these verses that Jesus was worshipped and referred to as God, and that he claimed to be God. (At least the God of the Old Testament). So, based on these verses (and the BofM and D&C verses mentioned above) it should be perfectly appropriate to pray to Jesus, worship Jesus, and refer to him as God.
Thanks for all the comments. I am still trying to work this out in my mind. I found a thread on a similar vein at the apologetics forum (ironically). Someone there linked to a pretty good article about the history of the Godhead theology in the church. If anyone else is interested you can read it
HEREI want to say that my main point isn’t that we need to change how we address our prayers.
I was taught (when I was seminary age) that we pray to the Father, but Christ is our mediator and he is the one who answers our prayers (through the H.G.). Looking at the scriptures where Jesus/Jehovah is the only one
evertalking (with a few exeptions where his Father acts as witness) I always felt that was a good way to describe it. My question is—is Jehovah our Father even though he has his own Father? Is he our creator, just as he is the creator of heaven and earth?
MapleLeaf, fwiw, I don’t see how those verses sanction praying to Jesus in our day in our regular lives. I absolutely agree that they justify seeing him as God, and, therefore, justify situations where it’s fine to pray to him. There seems to be one common thread throughout the scriptures about prayer – that it should be directed to the God within whose “jurisdiction” or “responsibilities” the request/supplication/thanks/action falls. When Jesus is present (like the Book of Mormon visitation), or in the Old Testmant / pre-ministry time (when he was speaking only to “his chosen people”), or when something is being done at his direct behest, etc. – in those situations, it is fine to give thanks to and ask things of (“pray”) him. Otherwise, when he is acting as a mediator for us with the Father, we pray to the Father in the name of the Son.
Generally, most of us aren’t going to be in the first type of situation often (if ever), so the standard, default is to pray to the Father in the name of the Son.
I figure if I’m ever in a situation that warrants praying directly to the Son, I’ll probably know it.
The entire D&C are the words of Jesus Christ. There is not one thing (that I have found) coming from his father. He calls people his sons. He is referred to as the Eternal Father, Father of heaven and earth, Alpha and Omega, The Most High God, etc. 3 Nephi 11:13 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them saying:
14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that
I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. 15 And it came to pass that the multitude went forth, and thrust their hands into his side, and did feel the prints of the nails in his hands and in his feet; and this they did do, going forth one by one until they had all gone forth, and did see with their eyes and did feel with their hands, and did know of a surety and did bear record, that it was he, of whom it was written by the prophets, that should come.
16 And when they had all gone forth and had witnessed for themselves, they did cry out with one accord, saying:
17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the
Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him. Okay, then check this out, this is still the resurrected Jesus speaking:
3 Nephi 20:19 For I will make my people with whom the
Father hath covenanted, yea, I will make thy horn iron, and I will make thy hoofs brass. And thou shalt beat in pieces many people; and I will consecrate their gain unto the Lord, and their substance unto the Lord of the whole earth. And behold, I am he who doeth it. 34 Then shall they break forth into joy—Sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem; for the Father hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem.
35 The Father hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of the Father; and the Father and I are one.
Chapter 20 is actually a little confusing because it refers to the covenant the Father made, which seems to be the covenant made by Jehovah since he is the God of the OT according to LDS doctrine. Here we also have reference to the Father as redeeming Jerusalem and the earth seeing the salvation of the Father. Redemption and salvations that I thought came through Jesus Christ. Then we have reference to the Oneness of Father and Son.
3 Nephi 20:46 Verily, verily, I say unto you, all these things shall surely come, even as the Father hath commanded me. Then shall this covenant which the Father hath covenanted with his people be fulfilled; and then shall Jerusalem be inhabited again with my people, and it shall be the land of their inheritance.
Here is says “his people” referring to the Father and then “my people” referring to the Lord. Are these people different or the same?
just me, we are now discussing two separate topics – prayer and godhood. That’s cool, but it’s important to make sure they don’t start to meld into one and end up blurring. My short answer is that there seldom is clarity in the scriptures concerning titles and responsibilities when dealing with “God”. This is evidenced in the millennia old debates about the nature of God – the Trinity divisions within Christianity – discussions about names and titles and roles – etc.
At the very least, I personally think Mormonism teaches that there are at least four “Beings” whom we can call “our God” in a way – our Heavenly Parents (HF & HM), the Son (JC) and the Holy Ghost. As has been discussed in the Adam/God thread, it gets really complicated when the very words and names are interpreted to be titles and roles (and someone can represent someone else) – meaning that different “Beings” can go by the same names and titles at any given moment and speak for themselves or others without clear attribution. When you add the understanding that the very name we use for the Father is a plural in the original form, it’s understandable why this is such a difficult topic.
That’s why I personally fall back on the idea that I’m just not likely to be in a situation outside the “default norm” of praying to the Father in the name of the Son. Intellectually, it’s an interesting discussion, but, spiritually, such a discussion is only academic to me. I prefer the simple in my own highly personal prayers.
That’s what works for me.
Old-Timer wrote:MapleLeaf, fwiw, I don’t see how those verses sanction praying to Jesus in our day in our regular lives. I absolutely agree that they justify seeing him as God, and, therefore, justify situations where it’s fine to pray to him.
Old-Timer wrote:Generally, most of us aren’t going to be in the first type of situation often (if ever), so the standard, default is to pray to the Father in the name of the Son.
Scripturally, that does not seem to be the default. The D&C (and BofM) records Jesus dealing directly with his people, the Old Testament records Jesus (Yahweh/Jehovah) dealing directly with his people, and there is indication in the New Testament that not only was Jesus dealing directly with his people in bodily form, but he was also prayed to and regarded as God. In light of these examples, I would suggest that dealing directly with Jesus is the default. If we based our praying solely on the scriptures, I think it would be perfectly appropriate to make this our default practice. However, it is true that in order to remain in-step with modern LDS teaching the concept of praying must be approached in a different way.
Worth pointing out that the Lord’s Prayer doesn’t include Jesus’ name in it. No “we ask these things in the name of Jesus Christ” or the like… but then again, it was Jesus saying it. I’ve been looking into the thing about God supposedly not having a body, like the Zoramite idea. Isn’t that pretty much a description of the Holy Ghost? The HG is not supposed to have a body, is he?
just me wrote:What do you think? Does anyone have references to
whywe have to make a clear distinction between HF and JC? If praying to Jehovah is so wrong why was it done for thousands of years (including by Joseph Smith)?
No references, sorry. I think the distinction is powerful as a symbol of the different functions of the two aspects of Godliness. Both of which we need to obtain to.HiJolly
No one mentioned the Heavenly Mother thing yet? I’ve heard some folk advocated this, but got in big trouble for it. At least one smaller Mormon denomination actually has a quaternity.
My mother, a very faithful, very conservative member, would pray to HF – then ask him to pardon her for a few minutes while she talked with HM. I always liked that approach. Totally heterodox in a totally orthodox manner.
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