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Apparently I did something right, or possibly my two daughters did something right. They picked amazing husbands, true to the faith, obedience to the rules, with long-distance goals. Both had served missions, their marriages were temple driven, and after approximately twenty-five years, I had been rewarded with twelve amazing grandchildren (two sons have given me five grandchildren as well, but they married late and their kids are yet very young). With my daughters families, the first mission has finished. My handsome grandson came and asked for my testimony to share in South Africa. Since I am a NOM, of liberal views, I kept it focused on service, avoiding “the only true church” and such. Now he has married in the temple. Three of my granddaughters are attending BYU, two of them are dating RM’s. They have all sought informal blessings from me as “patriarch,” asking for my advise (I told them to avoid Idaho cowboys, to date only urban males, since they were raised as valley girls). We laugh a lot in our family. I know this all sounds (to a TBM) as manna from heaven. How richly blessed I am (and I am). There is just one negative. To me, the church is a fairy tale. Like a beautiful mansion, it has a strong visual effect, but there are dark foundational cracks if you look closely. How do I share my real feelings with these wonderful kids? Will they be shocked? Will they turn away from gramps? Will they think I’m senile? Because our religion follows us into our coffins (temple robes), I think about mortality. Of late I had been thinking cremation, a funeral service outside of the LDS church (so talks won’t be missionary driven). I visualize new PJ’s and a nice robe, if a final viewing takes place. Something inside me says I can’t let my loved ones think I was orthodox,TBM to the core. I must reveal other paths to Heaven are OK. I must be true to myself.
It is all confusing. As my well-meaning aunt cried out, fifty-one years ago, upon learning I’d joined the LDS church, “You’ve ruined your life.” Ruined NO, but made very spiritually complex, YES. I kinda wish I’d never met those Mormon missionaries. I do try to be a great grandfather though (smile, open wallet, remove contents…). Shalom.
Quote:How do I share my real feelings with these wonderful kids?
You don’t. Period. They aren’t your children, and you would be undermining your own children.
You don’t. Period.
Thanks for your comment Ray. I brought my children up in Mormonism. My grandchildren come to me for validation of our religion. They want my testimony. They want my blessing. They want to know I have sent the family on a proper spiritual path. I cannot lie to them. I can say, “the manual would have us believe…” I can joke, I can love, I can give advise, but I cannot openly lie to my posterity. One son has left the church, another is questioning. With my lack of voice, I validate a believing status which I no longer hold. I had a wonderful grandfather, but I have no recollection he ever lied to me. It seems that to be quiet falls under the sins of omission. If I’ve given the church fifty years of my life, should I just fake it for the last ten or twenty? Or should I get honest and express my serious doubts? I do promote my belief in Christ Jesus, it becomes more central to my core as the shadows lengthen.
Now wait a minute… Quote:You don’t. Period. They aren’t your children, and you would be undermining your own children.
You don’t. Period.
… that can’t be right.
Now, I wouldn’t suggest a Grandpa wantonly push his posterity out of the Church, but I’d expect a Grandpa to be himself; speaking to correct “principles” and and quietly going about his business. His family will love him for who he is, not for who they “think” he should be.
Honesty is the best policy, isn’t it? If one of your Grand kids wants to know where you stand on a subject, you just tell them.
One of my Grandfathers had been the Bishop, donated a great deal to building the Chapel in the small farming community- and he was old school Mormon. Before WWII these Danes had coffee at their Bishopric meetings. Grandpa had his cup of coffee till the day he died. I love the smell of coffee, love the memory of my wonderful Grandfather, and love the fact that he continued to be who he was, not necessarily your formatted Mormon- till the day he died.
Hang in there George.
I will clarify, but I stand by my statement with regard to how you actually worded your post: 1) I NEVER said to lie. How did my statement say to lie? It didn’t. You painted a picture of happy children and grandkids and asked, essentially, if you should shake that foundation. Absolutely not, imo.
2) IF you haven’t talked with your children about this, you don’t talk with your grandchildren and hit them with doubts. If they are adults and come to you directly, that’s different – but that’s not what you asked with your actual words in your original post. Your repsonse to me paints a COMPLETELY different picture than your original post. Which is it – or is it a combination of the two?
3) If you have disaffected kids and/or disaffected grandkids, talking with them about concerns is perfectly valid. Again, that’s NOT the scenario you painted in your post.
So, in summary, I responded to what you said in your original post and the picture it painted. I stand by my repsonse to THAT scenario.
Ray, it is a mixture of both. My daughter’s families remain TBM. My son’s are more investigative, more questioning, more New Order. One son I didn’t mention in my original post is gay, thus no children and he has left the church. My original post was in regard to my daughter’s families alone. I noted that they had married great guys. We are a happy family. We are in Sacrament together nearly every Sunday. All my married children live within three miles of my home. It is difficult to describe all the goings on for a large family in one post. Perhaps you can relate. My original posting had to do with grandfathering. Perhaps I did a poor job keeping it there. I have kept my feelings about the church quiet with the twelve grandchildren through my daughters. My sons offspring are simply to young to involve. I must be honest when asked forthrightly about issues though. I know my posting are reflective, often asking for advise, when only I can make the ultimate decision. I appreciate all who give me advise. Do we have a mission statement for STAYLDS? I bear witness that smiling helps in life. Hi George. My take on the situation is NO, you should definitely not lie. On the other hand I would agree with your actions up till now of being very selective about what you say.
I think you have to look at what your “honesty” will mean to your loved ones. I’ve said before – your honest opinion may be that “that dress does you no good at all (don’t wear it)” but if you know the woman loves it – why throw your personal opinion into it? I can’t see how speaking your mind in that situation will do any good at all.
So what do you say when she asks? How do you stay “nice” and “honest” at the same time? I guess you get creative with your words. I think it’s best to think about such situations ahead of time, when you have time to find the right words. No, I don’t think it’s wrong to leave hints of your actual opinions (“I like the red one better”), but I think HOW you say it is of prime importance. (Find something good to say about the one you don’t like so you can come back with an honest positive comment when she says: “Oh, you
hateit don’t you!” …so to speak) In the end people will follow their own path. Personally I think it looks immature to say things like: “your path is all wrong, come over and walk my path for a while – you’ll see that it’s much better!”
You know the old saying: “Religion and Politics” …tread lightly.
Hi Orson, Thanks for the counsel. I have followed your suggested path in the past. I do share testimony of what I find good in the church, i.e., it brought me to Christ, it teaches service (the genius of the church), it pushes higher education, and helps raise great families. In my original post however, I considered my mortality. I’ve been in for fifty years, so do I smile and keep my mouth shut for the duration? I after all, am responsible (the first generation) for bringing my posterity to Latter-day Saintism. I see myself laid out in my coffin, wrapped in temple robes, with my posterity testifying how faithful a TBM I was, soon departing for Celestial glory. The vision bothers me, as it is not my vision of the hereafter anymore. I’m New Order now, and even then borderline, often assessing my current role as a cultural Mormon. All my children know I’m very liberal and universal toward salvation for all men. They don’t ask questions, maybe afraid to hear of my apostasy. I’m not an apostate, I’m just a old man who is questioning whether the church is still true (the evidence of which is scarcely sufficient). I’ve thought of preparing a letter to be distributed posthumously among loved ones, but it seems rather cowardly…
Well, I’m late to see this post and am a young father so my experience is on the other end. I had a grandpa who was not lds but who was the most Christ-like person in my world. And, in most ways, more influential to me in my adult life than even my parents. I was very, very close to him. He had four daughters, one my mom, and he let my grandma raise them in the church.
He never lied to me. We rarely talked religion. In fact, on his deathbed, I told him of some doubts I had about the church and he was a little worried for me because I hadn’t told anyone yet. He was neither happy for me nor disappointed in me, just empathetic to the plight ahead. In fact, I didn’t really get what he was saying till about a year later. What a man!
I agree with Ray. Based on your OP you should just stay quiet. However, just as you shouldn’t try to convince anyone of anything, so should your adult grandchildren not be affected by your views on anything. There’s alot of assumptions, but I’m guessing that you must think your opinion matters to them. It probably does, but, frankly, that’s not healthy either on their part.
You should be able to be honest with any adult, whether related or not, and not have to worry about the affect. That’s on them. At the same time, you shouldn’t go around trying to convince anyone of anything; that’s not your job. And why would you do it in the first place? To get your own validation? To undo perceived wrongs of the past? It’s not your job.
You’ll know when it’s appropriate to say something, when to stay quiet, when to answer questions, how to answer, etc. as long as you know in your heart that your motivations are correct. Make sure that you’re at peace with you, who you are, how you think, what you love. Without being affected by “what will I look like?’, or “what will they say about me?” or anything.
You be who you are. Let them be who they are. And everyone can just love. Life can be really simple. The head games we play with ourselves and each other is the only thing that complicates it.
That’s what I learned from my gramps. I love him to death, and am in tears thinking about him.
Wise words Swim. George, are you worried about your grandkids going through some future “disillusionment” and asking “why didn’t gramp say anything?”
I’m trying to understand the heart of your concern.
If you boil it down to what I consider the Godly attributes (including searching after truth and learning to love more unconditionally) I whole heartedly agree with promoting these ideals. Are you hoping your posterity will study more and learn more? I think its great to promote the gaining of knowledge.
The difference is trying to promote your personal application of that knowledge. If that makes sense.
I think history has lessons that everyone can and should learn from – but different people will take away different things. That’s the way it’s supposed to be. That in part is what makes life so interesting, and what helps us learn some valuable lessons.
It sounds like they are already getting some clues about what you really think. When you’re gone why don’t you let them deal with your body in a way that helps THEM deal with their loss? Funerals are for the living afterall, the dead have no need for it.
My 2 cents anyway…
GREAT thread! Thanks for starting it, George…and for the great responses so far. I LOVE this forum! My 1 1/2 cents…to an extent, there are degrees of understanding wrt spirituality. A calculus professor wouldn’t spend much time explaining integrals to a basic math student. It is the student’s journey to take each step to attain “calculus enlightenment.”
To me, the most positive aspect of the church (or churches in general) is to provide opportunities for members to learn by experience the true meaning of love. That’s it…that’s all there is, IMHO.
I have a real soft spot for my second daughter (okay, for all my kids, but you know what I mean!). She is 26, single, a real doll, a temple worker…as TBM as they come, and she finds great peace through the church. She knows I’m not “normal,” but we have come to respect each other’s journey, and revel in our individual journeys. I have no intention or desire to change anything about her! Why would I?!
Now, if she started showing me signs of confusion and conflict, I would be right there by her side giving her my thoughts — as long as it helped rather than hurt her progress.
At this stage of my life, I feel that it is not my responsibility to “save” my kids (I will start the grandkid thing in 3 months!
But again, I’m not normal.
I think it is more effective to show our children (grandchildren, etc.) what true religion is than to tell them what is true (or false). I confess that I suffer guilt over leading my posterity into Mormonism. I was raised in a Protestant church until eighteen, when I met LDS missionaries. I converted and served a full-time mission (I’ve served two stake missions as well). I do share my love of Jesus Christ with my children and grandchildren often. Recently I chose to not attend the temple wedding of a grandson. Two family members who are NOMs spoke to me about it, in supportive roles. None of my TBM spoke of it at all, which I appreciated, and I was there for the temple photos. I want my offspring to look beyond just the Mormon approach to life. My siblings are non-LDS and my TBM’s rarely visit and share their lives. It is all about ward friendships and families. It makes me sad. If I’m buried in temple clothing, it says to my TBM family, “Dad really believed. We will see him in the Celestial Kingdom.” In reality, I see myself with all of God’s children (especially my own), praising our Savior on a beautiful shore. I want nothing to do with future polygamy, or world’s without end. I guess I’ve returned to my Protestant beginnings. As someone mentioned, the secret of life is love and I am blessed with an abundance of it. Thanks for listening. Anyone have thoughts on a posthumous letter to my family. Is it cowardly?
George wrote:Anyone have thoughts on a posthumous letter to my family. Is it cowardly?
Wow! That’s a thought, huh?! Part of me says “I shouldn’t say something I’m not willing to say while alive.” But for the reasons mentioned in a few posts, maybe not such a bad idea?
Hmmm, no, I think I’ll side with the concept that it is most important to communicate and teach love to them. In my mind, that also means to let them live their journey without my intervention….
On the other hand (feeling very Tevye-like about now…), maybe you ARE God’s tool to impact change on them. I think a letter emphasizing how important you feel about Christ, and his great emphasis on love, would be an approach — and that is what you see as the most important law to live….
Just my ramblings….
Rix, “I will start the grandkid thing in 3 months!”
CONGRATS Rix, you will find it a most rewarding experience. I share my large home with one of my sons and family, so get to break bread with them every evening. I also babysit at another son’s household. It is so much more laid back than raising one’s own family. I cherish my conversations with the young ones. I spoil (a little). I hug a lot. I see myself in them. I teach environment and point out beauty. We watch the rabbits on the back lawn, we share music, how wonderful is that?
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