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I am new to this and have actually never participated in a blog anywhere. Any way my question is this, When I hear of of people choosing to stay LDS, 99% of the time they live in utah. It goes without saying that people stay for their own religious reasons but more often than not they reason by talking of all the good all things the church has to offer. Like, large groups of people, the companionship, the activities, staying part of the community and just enjoying the general Mormon culture. I live in Scotland where even when I was utterly TBM I still felt that church sucked and held none of the above for me ( this never affected my spiritual relationship with it in any way) . My kids were mixing with people that were from different back grounds to them and in many instances had lower standards than my children’s non member friends. Life as a Mormon in Scotland is not an easy road,It has always been hard to be understood by our many non member friends.
My reason to stay lds is based on my inability to happily move on and the sense of peace I get from remaining. I suppose the hope that my belief will resurface. I’m sure these feeling are universal for all who stay.
I just wanted to hear peoples opinions about how they would deal with this situation. And do people agree that the stronger/ more supportive the area/ ward etc the easier it is to stay active. Are there any statistics on this?
I remember my TBM Dad saying when I told him of my LDS historical ‘problems’ that there would be nobody around to answer my questions because if anyone had found these things out in Scotland then they would have left the church!! Helpful huh!
Any thoughts, advice?
I don’t know if it is any better in Utah. Maybe the challenges are just different. I live in the heart of mormon valley Utah and I could disappear and no one would know it or miss me. I don’t feel the companionship or part of the community as you describe so perhaps it is hard all over. Perhaps it is easier to stay active if your friends and family ties are strong and all of them are following the mormon path. In that case, I can see that it would be very easy to blend in by going thru the motions, not necessarily as a mark of true devotion. I guess what I am trying to say is that activity….real activity is driven and sustained by personal/individual desire and commitment. Perhaps you could add testimony and faith and proper vision driven obedience as part of the essentials list. In the end it isn’t really about what everyone else is doing. It is about what we feel is right and how we have committed to live in terms of being true to ourselves and true to our knowledge of God’s will. And I think every one of us must do so admid a variety of opposing forces.
I don’t know what it is like where you are. It does sound like it has its difficulties. Maybe it is difficult and would be for anyone. Maybe it is just the right recipe of difficulty for you personally. My first gut response would be to change the way you view those problems and perhaps look for opportunities in them. It might help to change your expectation set as well. I would think that if you are on a secure coming to Christ path, or at least at peace with where you are at on your own journey, that it would free you up to then become of service to the people and the organization around you.
I think the fact that you feel peace is really important and really good. I feel that way too. Kinda sick of the organization and all of its limitations and faulterings, but I feel some strange and transcending peace that is bidding me to stay. I suppose I follow the peace.
Hi 1topen, Welcome to our group. So glad you posted. You have good questions and I do understand how difficult this must be for you. Let me give you a short background on myself and why I can understand where you are coming from. I was born in Berlin, Germany and immigrated with my family to America when I was 3. My parents had joined the lds church in Germany in their late twenties when they were single. We moved directly to Salt Lake City and did get alot of support from the church and members. Eventually, we discovered that there are the best and the worst members in Utah. My dad met some pretty crooked business men there and I met some really bad youth there. Some wards were also very clicques. At 10 we moved to Los Angeles area and I loved the California members. My family eventually ended up in Las Vegas when I was 13 and we met some of the best members there. Living in ‘sin’ city actually strengthened my testimony because I could see how living outside the gospel really messed up peoples lives. At 21, I served a mission for the church in Austria for two years. Europe is a very difficult mission field and half our job was keeping member retention. So, you are correct that it is not easy to stay in the church in Europe and your country. Fellowshipping, does help alot. I have lived in Oregon 13 years, Florida 6 years, and now Iowa for the past 20 years. Some wards have been better than others. There is a difference from ward to ward sometimes. If you are ‘stuck’ in Scotland and want to be a member and fellowship, and have no good friends in the church, I guess you would have to convert them. My kids had better non-member friends as well sometimes. In Tampa, Florida we had to have them stop going to Mutual cause the kids were such a bad influence there. I know it is not easy and I would ask God to guide you in this. Having this group to talk to has been a great blessing for me and I hope it will be for you as well.
Bridget
Well said, Poppyseed. Quote:My reason to stay lds is based on my inability to happily move on and the sense of peace I get from remaining.
That’s a wonderful way of putting it. Thank you.
Fwiw, I was raised in Utah, but I haven’t lived there in years. I find it’s easier for me outside of Utah, if for no other reason than that the wards and branches in less concentrated areas are happy to have active people who will contribute and serve. Ideology tends to be less important when there isn’t a glut of available people.
That, btw, is true of ANY organization – not just the LDS Church.
Interesting concept, that of Utah keeping people in the Church. I have never lived in Utah except for a very brief 3-month visit there. I’ve preferred living in the Hinterlands! I joined the church 10 years ago. Where I have lived and attended church for the past 9 years is in an extremely urban city on the US east coast. We fellowship with everyone from baptized former drug dealers to 12-year-old single moms. I like it when I am around fellow sinners, rather than feeling like I am surrounded by saints and I am the only one failing Thank you so much for the input this is is so good for me. I hope i didn’t come across like it was awful here I just wanted to see other perspectives. I know the grass is always greener. We do have some amazing friends here at church and family. My husbands entire family are 3rd generation Mormons( almost unheard of here as the saints were still emigrating to utah 40 years ago!) I don’t know if I have attached the quote below correctly but I thought it was interesting.
Quote:“Ideology tends to be less important when there isn’t a glut of available people”.
I think much of the ideology that was in the Church of Scotland (very orthodox christianity prolific throughout scotland until fairly recently) has been passed over to the older members, so we still have so much of that today which is probably what makes it hard. Its crazy, there are so few able members but the leaders still insist on running every program to the letter, all callings being filled, 100% of everything. I was recently released from being the stake primary president and at stake council the presidency were complaining about their recent trip to utah where “things were starting late and that things were generally a bit sloppy out there”, I thought it was so funny. It seems we are a model of great practice up here in scotland. Great for the zealots a little frustrating for me.
In my circle of acquaintances, I’ve had the opposite experience. I have several friends/family members who probably would still be active if they lived outside Utah. I think it all has alot more to do with individual personality type than anything else. @poppy:
Loved your post. Absolutely inspired, imo! (Though I hope no one trusts my sensibilities
😳 😆 )I agree that the problems are just different in high-density Mormon areas, not easier or better. I only lived in Utah for 1 year while I attended BYU. It was a culture shock to me, and I was raised LDS by devout parents. It was uncomfortable and confusing to me personally having almost no separation between religion and local culture. I also think it is easier for me personally to stay active and happy in Church outside the Mormon regions. Like others mentioned, it is a LOT harder for Mormons to get all whacky ideologically and self-righteous (prideful) in areas where we are a minority. My ward has a lot of part-member families, more cultural diversity, and families with inactive adult/teen children. There isn’t a lot of room to throw rocks at others in a glass chapel like that
Everyone is honestly happy and appreciative that people show up to Church and participate, even members and investigators that have rough edges.
Much of my thoughts have been said, but as a lifelong Utahn, I feel obligated to say something. I have lived in Utah my entire life up until the last two years (I’m 28). Here are my thoughts. I love Utah. I can’t help it, I really do. I love the community, the landscape, the outdoors paradise, etc. There are two things I don’t particularly care for about Utah. The first is that wicked awful dry climate.
😈 The second is the culture that is created around Mormonism. I believe most of my problems, and disaffection stem from parting with that culture. As it turns out, when I step back and examine what is actually doctrine, and church policy, I’m not nearly as inclined to be heretical. Having said that, I went to BYU (for two degrees) and loved it there. I must confess I have always been aloof of the petty parts of the culture of self-righteousness and condemnation. But even so, I fell into many of the other cultural traps that I think exist there. Personally, I think growing up in Utah, unless constantly challenged, can result in a rather unhealthy worldview (as I believe I had). I suppose that is true everywhere, but there are some places that are more conducive to a healthy worldview, and Utah (at least if you’re Mormon) probably isn’t one of them. As I have asked my non-member co-workers, most people have the impression that Mormonism is a rather stringent, controlling religion (there’s some truth to that, especially in Utah), but still admire it and respect it. I think that impression comes largely from Utah and the culture there.Exposure to new ideas, new people, different kinds of people, etc. is not as easy when you’re a Mormon living in Utah Valley!!
Quote:I have lived in Utah my entire life up until the last two years (I’m 28).
Sometimes, occasionally, I feel really old.😯 I don’t mean to hijack the thread but here’s one gripe that I would like to submit. I find that I can’t talk to other members here in Utah, about being Born Again, like a Born Again Mormon. They look at me like I’m crazy. The natural inclination for me is to come out of my cultural shell and act like a real Christian should, happy, excited, thankful, close to emotion when needed, full of faith and implicit trust in God, and in a “praise the Lord” sort of worship thing. I can’t talk to the other members too much about how I feel inside and my personal relationship with God without them thinking that it is all some sort of make believe, that it’s not appropriate to be acting and talking this way, like a Born Again Christian. Well sorry Mr. Mormon, Mom included, I do believe that Mormons can and should be having wonderful and deep “coming to Christ” experiences.
I am a mormon because God hasn’t told me to leave it yet. (Well, my testimony goes a hundred feet deeper than this, but…) I have prayed for it, not that I was trying to leave it, but what if the Mormon church wasn’t God’s true church? I want to go where God wants me to go, and if that means putting down my Book of Mormon and heading out of Dogde, then to Dodge I go.
My problem with Utah Mormons is, I don’t think we are living up to what we should be. We are holding ourselves down, and for what? Why are we living in the center of Mormomdom and hiding our candles under baskets?
borninit and others have hit on an important point – in Utah, where so many are LDS, there is an LDS culture with a norm. Personally, I like the church there OK (not Utah County, though, sorry to say), but I prefer it outside the Mormon Corridor. I like diversity. I like sinners. I like converts. I like apostates. I like real people. There are all kinds in Utah, too, but there are just so many “good” ones that fit in to a norm that there is a lot less diversity, the sinners are closeted away, the converts are trying to look like everyone else, the apostates are ostracized, and people sometimes have an authenticity problem. In other areas of the church, you don’t have “politics” in your ward because you’re lucky if you have enough active members to fill all the callings; you can’t judge whether they fit the mold or not. You don’t have people policing content to make sure no one has deviated from correlated material. That’s a luxury you don’t have. And frankly, it makes the church experience more valuable to me. Certainly less boring. In Utah, I think it would be easier to go inactive. They don’t need you as much, so your calling might be more trivial and less engaging. And many ARE inactive there. An average ward (of roughly a square mile or so) in Utah comprises 33% active members, 33% inactive members and 33% non-members. There are plenty who are LDS on record only.
I love Utah. I will defend it to the death but I think Hawkgirl is right that there are some diversity and authenticity problems. I have sometimes felt that part of my religious/social upbringing involved lots of training in the art of pretending. I find myself in my current circumstance longing to be real with my associations in the church and still find fellowship and support. It is this breakdown in the Utah-mormon attitude that I find particularly troublesome. But inside of my personal sphere I love the invitations from the Spirit to be authentic and real and imperfect. I confess though and overwhelming feeling that I must hide all of it from my neighbors whether they be members or not. It seems the nonmembers sometimes judge as harshly just in strange unexpected ways. I need to get out of Utah, as much as I love and appreciate it here. I have known that for a long time. But it isn’t going to happen anytime soon. So, I need to learn to find ways to navigate. New ways that work for me. I just haven’t found them yet.
😳 I know Scotland. Trials and hardships are the hallmark of a Scottish Saint. Some of the most heroic and valiant Saints I have ever met live there. They stand on their own upright and alone, tried and tested. Perhaps you are taking a breather and leaning against the Church wall. If the Church sucks, so what, history sucks, Utah sucks, everything sucks, that’s just the way it is. Your ‘spiritual relationship’ is intact. Great, build upon it, spend time getting to know Christ. Stand alone with Him, become one with Him and prepare to stand as a spiritual landmark for others. Greetings to Scotland from overseas:
‘From the lonely sheiling of the misty island,
mountains divide us and a waste of seas,
yet still the blood is strong
the heart is highland’
Be strong. Braveheart
Some really interesting thoughts. When I hear about the constraints in Utah I think I see how much harder it all is than I thought to live there. Thank you Braveheart your words are really inspiring, I love your quote below.
Quote:prepare to stand as a spiritual landmark for others.
I have realized that this can be ones only true calling when you reach the point that many on this forum have.
I know there are amazing members here and I love them for their dedication. They give all, for virtually nothing back ( in this life anyway)
Thanks all, for making me see that I do have it good here and that its as easy to stay LDS in Utah as it is in any other part of the world, Its just a choice. I suppose there is good everywhere we just have to look hard to see it.
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