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Lately I’ve been doubting the existence of God. I start thinking that if there is a God, he/she/it was created by people. I reflect back on the various mythological gods and goddesses, and wonder if Western civilization is any different? I look at all the religions of the world with their interpretations of a diety. I do not know what to believe. Perhaps I’ve lost all faith. Then I’ve been reflecting this week on something someone wrote to me a year ago this month. It was a verbal attack that cut me to the core. I thought the wounds had healed. Apparently they are still with me. My question to all here would be this: What has convinced you that God does, indeed, exist?
I’m sorry for this downer post. I’m in a dark place emotionally and spiritually right now.
Well, I’ve certainly been there. Heck, I still go there from time to time. Let’s see…stuff that convinces me that God exists….
-practical science says that the universe is winding down/fizzing out. However, evolution (physical and spiritual) seems to be going in the opposite direction. That seems in defiance to what we think of as natural laws.
-paradoxes….things that don’t make sense…such as paying tithing to be blessed with financial security…forgetting yourself and serving others results in one having the things they need whereas when one actively seeks the things they need, it doesn’t seem to work out
That’s 2 big ones for me….
Hi Kalola, I am glad you posted what you are going through. It is a painful thing to feel you are all on your own and there is no Heavenly Parent or God looking out for you. I have been there myself. I posted this on the prayer topic, but maybe you have not read it and will cut and paste it here for you.
It was at a time in my life where things were so stressful and not going well. I had just had my third child and finances were really bad. I became angry and decided this “God’ thing was just a crock and was not going to pray anymore. Soon after, our family went on a labor day picnic out in the Oregon woods. We had to go under a fence and found a beautiful spot by the river. There was a lovely bridge over the area too. Well, a bunch of teenage boys were hanging out there and seemed to be annoyed that we were by their spot. We told them we would not bother them and would find a spot a good space away. Well, they left all of a sudden and we thought nothing of it. A few minutes later we saw them on the bridge above us calling us horrible names and then began throwing large rocks at us. I could not believe it. My husband rushed my two older kids (7 and 9 at the time) and me holding the 2 month old baby in my arms out of the area. One big boulder hit me in the back and I almost stumpled and fell with my new baby. Well, NOW I was angry as a bear with his cub and was swearing. I was so frightened that I started praying. I said, “God, you know I don’t believe in your anymore, but just in case you are there, please help us. Don’t let these teenagers get away with this.” When we got to our car, the teens seem to be gone and my husband just headed home. I was crying pretty hard at this time and when we got home, I told my husband to call the Police to check out the area. (no cell phones in 1982 for us). My husband kept telling me that they would be long gone but I told him to please call anyway. I began praying again, telling God that I would start praying again and belieiving in him if these boys would be caught and held accountable. Well, the police did find them at that exact spot and they got in big trouble. So, I know what you mean how God can get our attention in ways we may not like.
I have also had some very powerful experiences and help in regards to my gay son that helped me know that God was there. I will pray for you to find peace in this. Bridget
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Kalola wrote:Lately I’ve been doubting the existence of God. I start thinking that if there is a God, he/she/it was created by people. I reflect back on the various mythological gods and goddesses, and wonder if Western civilization is any different? I look at all the religions of the world with their interpretations of a diety. I do not know what to believe. Perhaps I’ve lost all faith. Then I’ve been reflecting this week on something someone wrote to me a year ago this month. It was a verbal attack that cut me to the core. I thought the wounds had healed. Apparently they are still with me.
My question to all here would be this: What has convinced you that God does, indeed, exist?
I’m sorry for this downer post. I’m in a dark place emotionally and spiritually right now.
GREAT question, Kalola! Of course you’re not going to get a one paragraph answer that would convince you one way or the other, but many responses will hopefully help you think through it a bit.
First, reading between the lines a bit, I would guess there have been some negative events in your life recently. I know for me, this is when I start doubting myself a bit. I hope the sun will rise bright and anew for you tomorrow, and the tide will turn for you. It always does!
Second, I hang with a diverse bunch of folks these days; many religious, many not…and many atheists. In a weird sort of way, my observation is that some of the happiest people I know are atheists. That may surprise many here, but think about it — if you believe that “this” is all there is, you’d probably make the best of it, right?! Also, I think many religious paradigms involve expectations…of oneself, and of “God.” That’s a recipe for failure, since it’s always possible that the presumed “conditions” aren’t met…then the outcome is not what we expected. Without any of that, life happens one minute at a time…without surprises or disappointments. And some of the most depressed people I’ve met have been those who do, or once believed in a conditional God…then something changed, or expectations weren’t met by one or the other.
Now, please don’t get me wrong — I am NOT saying “God” doesn’t exist. It’s just an observation that kinda surprised me after living most of my life around Mormons, then about 10 years ago that changed a bit for me. I love all the diverse folks I call my friends today!
I read a few books over the last few years about “atheism.” The “God Delusion” by Dawkins, and The End of Faith by Sam Harris. They both made compelling points, but I felt that Dawkins argued against the human God common in Christianity, without much wiggle room for a different perception of the nature of God that many have today. The End of Faith addresses many of the points you brought out…how God was created, and the human suffering that has taken place throughout history because of “him.”
Many things I’ve read recently indicate that throughout the world, there is a rapidly evolving perception of “God.” There is a term called “ignosticism” that states that we can’t really define God…perhaps we just don’t know enough about how “He” could or could not exist since we are just scratching the surface of understanding about energy and matter (ie, science). I’m fascinated by the recent work in quantum physics….
So it allows me to view it all as metaphor. I’m fine to hear the word “God” used so differently. I hear a statement, and if it serves me well to see “God” as the creator of what is good, and lovely, I’m fine with it. It doesn’t have to be literal to me anymore.
Another 180 degree change for me is the concept of “knowing” (see my sig line…). I know this is kinda weird wrt Mormonism, but I think if we feel the need to “know” something, and then something shows up that challenges that, our ego is challenged and we do all we can to defend our previous convictions. That can hinder learning, and growth. So you won’t hear me saying “I know…….” — it backs me into a corner that becomes hard to move from!
Anyway, It’s worked well for me…so until something comes along that convinces me I’m wrong, I’ll probably stick to it!
Good luck to you too!
I’ll try and make this short, but here is my strory. A year after I got off my mission I had my testimony ripped from me. It was gone. It started when a guy that I worked with told me about the hypocracy of the Mormons and I decided to look into it. I had never thought about Mormons in a negative way so this was different. His statements didn’t bother me, it wasn’t like I was reading anti-Mormon literature, I accepted his statements as his perception on Mormons. However, the seed of emnity had been planted and my testimony was stripped from me.
I stopped believing in God. In conversations I almost couldn’t help telling people that it was their God, not my god. I didn’t have a god. I lost my faith in prayers, there was not point in prayer. If I did, I felt foolish praying to myself or sending my prayer into outer space.
I wasn’t going to tell anyone. I promised myself a long time ago that I would never become inactive, however that was a possibility now, but I kept going. It was my social structure and I didn’t have the courage then to blow lids off of my surrounding society. I started making decisions about if I would continue to live the Word of Wisdom or not, I decided that I would because I didn’t see any sense in taking the risk of becoming addicted to anything. I also started to entertain ideas of having roomates of the opposite sex, I thought that would be cool and fun, but I didn’t pursue it.
This went on for several months.
People started complaining about an attitude or personality change in me. I have always been a mean nasty person, but my kind side was starting to dissapear. I could care less about anyone. I was argumentative and impolite. I took their complaints seriously and realized that it was my former religion and belief that had made me the somewhat tolerable person that I used to be.
Getting back to reading scriptures was hard. I didn’t believe them. Praying felt empty and stupid. I was a moron, a dope, praying to an invisible god that wasn’t there. I started to act the part, but I have to admit, the road back has been horribly hard. All too often I felt like I was convincimg myself that it was all real, that I was creating it. Sometimes though, I would have a spiritual experience, and it strengthened me.
It was at this time that I met my wife. I knew from the moment that I first saw her that she would be my wife. It was a strange sort of belonging, a matching, a fit.
I usually didn’t take the sacrament at this time. I was still worthy to attend the temple and hated doing baptisms for the dead with my fiance, I was stressed and still felt like I was playing an act.
Things eased up for me, faith became easier, light and spiritual nourishment continued and I was given the strength to keep going. My wife had only an idea how hard this was for me, to live wanting to believe but still not being satisfied. I had to push on remembering what I had had before my mission and on my mission. I recalled testimony builders and they became my bedrock.
Seven years later, two kids later, after much frustration and a lot of imperfect prayers and fasting, after a lot of self doubting and phylosophical reasons why there couldn’t be a god, but the spiritual reasons why there is, it was finally my time. I guess I was ready, and I pushed myself through a hard time with prayer, pushed beyond the doubt and frustration where I would normally back off and say it wasn’t worth it to me, and kneeling at my bed, my wife was asleep, I felt as though I was told to go into my walk in closet and spill it all out. The breakthrough happened, the experience was almost unreal. Snot was everywhere because I was crying too much, I was so full of love and light. This was my springboard, and I have been going strong for 2 1/2 years now. I’m not floating effortlessly, but I have the faith that I lacked, and I am praying to someone now. The love is still with me.
I don’t know why this all had to happen. It just did. I am not saying that you will have the same experience. This is my experience, but I am sure that there is light at the end of your darkness. Just hang in there. You are loved and are not forgotten. You will be prepared if you are willing to plant a seed. This is my testimony.
Wow, kalola! You are in such an interesting place. I’ve said this in other posts, but I find this all fascinating and exciting. I’m sorry that it feels so dark and isolated to you but, in my experience, it’s often these dark times which lead to extraordinary breakthroughs in our spiritual progression (if you want to call it that). To me, I think you might be trying in vain to believe in a “God” that really doesn’t exist. I’m a big believer in God being unique and personal to every single individual person on the planet, past, present and future. It’s our attempts to believe in a “God” that has been presented to us externally that becomes problematic.
Even JS, changed his belief in God. I imagine that on his journey he continued to evolve and adapt his own belief in what God is and shared that as a true knowledge for him, a knowledge that he felt was inspired, as he truly believed that he was an inspired person with unusual insight.
Well, kalola, you are an inspired person with unusual insight, as well. As we all are if we let ourselves believe and if we have confidence in our own experiences and in our interpretation of our personal experiences.
If we focus on the big picture, life, we will recognize that the only thing that matters is our own interpretation and perspective of what “God” is to us, personally. Every other part of our spiritual and emotional progression is dependent upon our uniquely personal experiential interpretation, so why not “belief in God”?
I know I sound very philosophical at times around this topic but the only belief that matters is my own. If “God” is real, He wants me to have a uniquely personal relationship with Him, unfettered by other dogmas, traditions, or external influences. My relationship with God becomes my relationship with myself; how I love myself, embrace the good that is in me, nurture myself, believe in myself, share of myself, grow, love, and enjoy every moment in life, good or bad.
The first commandment is to love God. The only way for us to truly love God, is to love ourselves. Whether God exists or not, we do exist. God is, in essence, the perspective that we have of ourself in our own unique world-view. In my mind, the ability to stay present and the action that this entails, is an individual expression of our love of ourselves, our life, our journey, our “God”, our potential for joy and happiness.
It’s the paradigm of God as parent that I feel creates an unhealthy motivation. God is me. I am God. He doesn’t exist without me because my perspective is all that matters, ultimately. This may sound incredibly egotistic or self-centric but really, what does anything matter, if not for my own purpose as an individual. Iow, if I don’t exist, do I care if God exists?
Did God create me, or did I create God? For me, it’s both. I came from something, and I call this “God”. This something gave me a unique set of feelings and emotions that allows me to feel empathy, tell stories, and love in abstract transcendental ways. I recognize this, I call it “God”, and I embrace it’s existence in me because it brings me the joy, peace, and happiness that I want to achieve. But, without me, God wouldn’t exist. God exists in me because I allow God to exist in my individual realm of existence.
And, I take no care for “tomorrow”, the after-life. My journey today, in this very moment, is without time. Eternity is already happening. Not something we’re waiting for. I tell this to my students all the time: you’re only 23 once. Make the most of it!
I don’t think you should apologize for having dark times. I don’t feel any extra burden by it. In fact, I feel comforted that I am not the only one. Darkness doesn’t mean there isn’t light and truth….or that the truth we once knew doesn’t exsist anymore. It just means we can’t see or feel it for a time. This is the time when we choose whether to lean on faith or give into doubt. It is also a time to let go and let God as there are lessons waiting to bring us to greater understanding.
I believe in God. I believe He is my Father and that I can talk to Him any time about any thing. I feel I can trust Him above anything or anyone in this human earth world. And I believe He is supporting and guiding my journey and that He knows me and loves me anyway. And I feel solid and sure about stating it so.
But I did go thru my own dark time where I thought that perhaps I had just psychologically convinced myself that the voice in my head was God or that I had been so stupid to have believed all this religious mormon “pray and revelation will come” hoopla. Actually, it was a deeper feeling than that. I felt betrayed by something I had loved so dearly and cherished so intimately. It was a profound loss and I felt stunned almost that I had been so delusioned. But these were passing thoughts and feelings, albeit slow moving. But they didn’t stay or stick. I have wondered at that concluding that darkness didn’t have the achoring ability that truth does…..only the ability to confuse and muddle things with fear and doubt. It didn’t really teach or confirm anything. In hindsight, I think they were a lot like the mists of darkness described in Lehi’s dream and I was more comforted that they happened even to the ones holding onto the rod.
I battled thru this for about a year and a half and then little rays of hope started to bubble up to the surface and I started to have a reason to exercize my faith in God again. I had some comparisions in my life to draw from. Like my college days when I was going to the temple every Saturday and reading my scriptures faithfully and I started to remember the almost hourly spontaneous spirit feelings I had then. And not only that but the happiness and confidence and peace I enjoyed as I lived that way. I also started to see how God had led me into a questioning time and I started to understand that it was wisdom in Him that I go thru it. Not that he didn’t love me anymore. By this point in my life, pain and dysfunction had done a number on my spiritual sensibilities. I was believing a load of lies and some desperately important unwinding was needed. I can look back and see how My HF was leading me the whole time even though I didn’t know where I was going or why the suffering happened. I am now filled with so much gratitude as I have come back to the knowledge I had in the first place . But am grateful that now my knowledge is more broad and more deep. God did meet me on the other side of my faith, over and over and over again.
It sounds so cheesy and I am so sorry it does. But I really think there is something to hanging on until the light comes. In not believing the darkness is as threatening as it seems. In putting faith in something you can’t see or recognize in the moment and holding onto the tiniest scraps of hope even if all it is is a memory from childhood when you did know there was a God.
What is that scripture about “dispute not because ye see not”…and… something about not receiving a witness until after the trial of faith? I think that the darkness just means we are in a proving, testing and strengthening time. Darkness doesn’t lead or confirm or give mile markers to travel by. But it does test and expand our faith if we choose that better perspective rather than buying into the fear and nothingness.
I dont’ know you very well Kalola, but I have enjoyed your posts. Hang in there. I hope you keep posting and telling us where you are in your journey. I think we need to help each other thru the dark.
I have loved everyones replies. This is a great discussion. When the great physicist Alber Einstein was asked if he believed in God, he responded: “We are in the positon of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many launguages. The child knows someon must have written those books. It does not know how….” I remember reading this when I was down once and it really helped me:
The Dark Periods of Life
“And Jacob awaked out of his sleep and said, ‘Surely the Lord is in this place; and I knew it not.’” Genesis 2:16
I once read of a little girls experience in riding a train through tunnels. The first time she was on a train which passed through a tunnel she scooted over real close to her mother and held on for dear life. However, after a few experiences the little girl was much more relaxed while passing through the tunnels. Eventually, after just leaving a tunnel, the little girl turned to her mother and remarked: ‘Mother, I like tunnels” Rather stunned, the mother asked why she liked tunnels. The small child replied: “Because tunnels have light a both ends.”
There are many tunnels we must pass through in life-tunnels of deep hurt, disappointment, sorrow, grief. In the midst of life’s tunnels, when it is blackest, there are some things about God which we need to remember. One thing we need to remember is that God is with us, working for us, even when we aren’t aware of His presence. God doesn’t hang out a sign which says: ‘The Almighty is at work here.” God goes about His business of healing the hurt in our lives, and He does it unseen, unheard, and unnoticed. God is much like a majority of the people responsible for the production of a movie. They work behind the scenes, putting the pieces together so that the movie will have meaning to it.
Often the presence of God is more of a conviction than it is a feeling. His presence, you see isn’t dependent upon our feelings. Sometimes the hurt is so great in the darkness of the tunnel we are not aware of God’s presence. But tunnels have light at both ends. Keep traveling. Don’t stop. Another thing about God we need to remember when in a tunnel is this: Even when we fail to ask for His help, God continues to help. Sometimes the hurt in life is so deep that we cannot utter well-worded prayers as we normally would. Perhaps we even fail to think of God. Does a parent always wait to be asked by his child before he begins to help? Of course not. Neither does God wait.
If we have given our life to God and have tried our best to be true and faithful to Him, it isn’t His nature to run out on us simply because we temporarily forget to ask for His help. God knows us as a parent knows his children each by name, each as an individual person. He helps us even when we fail to ask for help. It is a dark tunnel when life deals a hard blow. But God continues to help even if we fail to ask for it. There is light at both ends. Keep moving.
One other thought about God will help us in life’s dark tunnels: Even when we doubt if God can help us, He is still steadily working to help us. God’s ability to help heal our hurt isn’t totally dependent upon our mental capacity to believe He can. God is not limited by our finite minds, nor even by our doubtful hearts. All too often God is helping us even when we say He can’t help us. Arthur John Gossip was a well-known Scottish preacher from Aberdeen, Scotland. After his wife’s unfortunate death he preached a sermon entitled: ‘But. When Life Tumbles In, What Then?” In it he said: ‘I cannot comprehend how people in trouble and loss and bereavement can fling away peevishly from the Christian faith. In God’s name, fling to what? Have we not lost enough without losing that too?…You people in the sunshine may believe the faith, but we in the shadow must believe it.” When passing through a tunnel, remember that there is light at both ends.
One other thing that helped me: Why God says NO so often!By Lynnita Seitenstich
I’ve often wondered why God answers so many of my prayers with an emphatic No! Bombarding questions have racked my mind every time I have tried to figure out why my requests were refused. Did I do something wrong? Did I pray for the wrong thing? Did I say th prayer incorrectly? Doesn’t God love me? After all, Jesus said, ‘Ask, and you will receive.” I asked, but I didn’t receive. I prayed for God’s healing power when my husband’s father was dying of cancer. The answer was NO. I prayed for money to buy a new flute when I was majoring in music at Indiana University. The answer was No. A few days ago, I prayed for my husband to make a sale on a vacuum cleaner so that we could pay our taxes early. My husband put in a difficult and grueling day, but again the answer was No. Why? I needed the flute, didn’t I? A carpenter needs reliable tools, and a musician needs a dependable instrument. And what’s wrong with paying taxes a month early?
I finally found the answer to my question in Mark. Jesus prayed fervently to His Father to be released from His impending death on the cross. How could God deny His Son a request like that? Was Jesus wrong to ask for a way out? I don’t think so. It’s not wrong to desire life above death. Did He say the prayer incorrectly? Nonsense. God listens to the heart not the mouth. How could the Man who taught us how to pray, pray incorrectly? Did God not love Him? Of course, He did. Then why did He tell His own Son No? Because He knew better. An entire world would have been lost if God said Yes to Jesus. There was no other way for us to enjoy eternal life with Jesus. God had good reason to say No. He could see the horrid consequences of an affirmative answer. Likewise, He could see infinitely further than I when I made my requests. He knew it was better for my father-in-law to sleep in peace waiting for Jesus to come. He knew I didn’t need a new flute, because in a year I would fid that music wasn’t the life for me. He knew that the money for our taxes would come in time and that my husband’s business would improve. We aren’t wrong in making requests of God. He wants us to. And if He says No, we can remember that He said the same to His Son. Because He knew better. He always does.
I am overwhelmed by your responses and your willingness to share your personal stories. Every word each of you has written leads me to believe that “God” does exist. When I post here at StayLDS, I do believe “God” speaks to me through the responses I receive.
When I think of “God,” I try to picture him as either George Burns in the movie “Oh, God!” or Morgan Freeman in “Bruce Almighty” and “Evan Almighty.” I told DH yesterday that the God I want to believe in has a sense of humor. 2 Nephi 2:25 reads: “Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have
joy.” Could having a sense of humor be part of “joy?” I want to add too that I found a most amazing blog yesterday. The title of one of the blogger’s posts is “Who is God?”
Thank you for helping me find the light at the end of the tunnel.
Sure, I think God has a sense of humor, and He gave every man and woman on this earth and even some animals senses of humor too. Laugh, joke, have fun. Relax. You have permission, and just think, when you are happy, God looks down at you and He is happy too, for you. Much love
Kalola wrote:When I think of “God,” I try to picture him as either George Burns in the movie “Oh, God!” or Morgan Freeman in “Bruce Almighty” and “Evan Almighty.” Could having a sense of humor be part of “joy?”
I want to add too that I found a most amazing blog yesterday. The title of one of the blogger’s posts is “Who is God?”
Thank you for helping me find the light at the end of the tunnel.
I loved those movies! We’d being crying all the time if we didn’t have laughter. And, yes it is a big part of joy. I am curious as to what the blogger you mentioned said about “Who is God?”
bridget_night wrote:I am curious as to what the blogger you mentioned said about “Who is God?”
I can send you a PM with a link to the blog if that’s okay with you.
sounds good. Thanks.
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