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Hi all, I just felt it was time to edit my comments here, it seems I might have given out tmi to maintain my anonymity. I’ve seen photocopied fliers posted in my neighborhood with a picture of Pres Obama edited to look like the Joker from the recent Batman movie. The title said “New World Order.” They didn’t show his speech in my kid’s school either. I assume due to parent influence. Someone in town has an issue with spray painting “Ills Out!” graffiti on utility boxes (referring to illegal aliens from Mexico and South America). Powerful parents also tried to get the Harry Potter books removed from some local school libraries, taking it all the way up the court system, because they encouraged children to practice magic and participate in the occult. Lord of the Rings has always been ok though … *boggle* Here’s the difference,
Mormons are less than 1% of the population where I live in a suburb of Atlanta, Georgia.
The fuzzy line between religion and culture makes these attitudes difficult to deal with. I feel for you. Really … people who profess to follow Jesus Christ should behave better, at least in theory. The world is a messy place full of people trying (and often failing) to live up to the ideals of their religion … Mormons, Baptists, Methodists, Muslims, the list goes on and on.
Yet there is something beautiful about trying. I guess I try to see the glass as half-full, as much as I can. The change comes through us, by being the good people we wish others would be.
We try to avoid broad brush criticisms of “everyone” in the Church, or other groups for that matter. This is an important topic, but it almost needs to go into the SUPPORT or GENERAL forum sections.
How do you deal with these issues in your community Overit? Do you have suggestions on making change?
Thank you for your post. I feel very close to this subject. I have a relative that was excommunicated because he wouldn’t keep quiet over blacks NOT receiving the priesthood; after discovering that Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to an African American. I should also mention that one of my best friends is African American and we have discussed this issue several times. My father still makes racist comments about African Americans. It’s very frustrating because my family doesn’t even call him on it when he does it, yet if I talk about making “R” rated movies (I’m a film guy) the family criticizes me immediately. It’s very odd as I see RACISM as a more serious issue.
The Mormon Church is being discussed much more in the media and due to it’s stance on “prop 8” etc. it will continue to be talked about for good and bad. (I said the Mormon Church and did not equate that with my belief and relationship with God.) The cultural issues in the church are VERY REAL and VERY challenging. I think there are a lot more members that share their concerns with you then you may think. (I currently hold a temple recommend and teach gospel doctrine.)
I’m personally struggling on my beliefs in aspects of the church but my love for the GOSPEL is REAL! Thank you for bringing up such an important issue.
overit wrote:The election of Obama has brought the most virulent racism to the surface in our town, and my children are constantly faced with outbursts from their peers at school linking Mormons to hating/wanting to kill the president. Most of this happens in seminary, and in some instances, the seminary teachers participate. I even heard that one teacher outlined scriptural refrences linking Obama to the anti-Christ. The schools, at the urging of the few, yet powerful, LDS parents, refused to show the president’s message to students a few weeks ago. When teachers expressed disappointment over this, Mormon students stated “It’s because Mormon’s hate Obama.”
I’m so glad that I don’t live behind the “Zion curtain”. I live on the East Coast and volunteered for the Obama campaign and we put a huge sign on our front lawn. Everyone in the ward knew who I was voting for. Happily I never heard any racist comments about Obama. Primarily the arguments were conservatism vs liberalism (although they may have been hiding behind such comments to disguise their racism.) Interestingly, at our last Stake Conference, one of the speakers brought up politics, but as far as I could tell, he was questioning Republican/conservative ideals and was in general espousing more liberal ideas. I would have major problems if I saw the blatant racism that you describe.
Overit, I am so sorry you are in such a difficult area. I have shared my story elsewhere on the site, but I grew up in a very Democrat ward, and I truly believed during my teen years that the church was liberal-leaning. It was quite a shock when I went to BYU and everyone was so Republican! It seems that both ends of the political spectrum are full of fear, and fear breeds intolerance and oppression. The Dems I went to church with had their own set of intolerances as well (toward those who were less educated, people who didn’t breast feed or recycle, or anyone who was well-to-do). Unfortunately, there’s a wide gap between the Christ and his followers. Some who profess to be Christians are as intolerant as they come. This is certainly true in all churches and outside churches altogether. It’s very difficult to want to associate with people who are bigoted or sexist, though. The best we can do, IMO, is to make it clear where the lines are and to address it head on if those lines are crossed. For example, I don’t allow my kids or their friends to use the term “gay” as a derogatory remark (e.g. “that’s so gay”). While I know that all the kids say things like that, it doesn’t make it right. At church, if someone says something that is not Christian, I think it’s important to redirect those comments. Silence is assent. I wouldn’t go spoiling for a fight or try to embarrass anyone, but their comments are a reflection on the entire Mormon community, and I don’t want them to think that they represent my feelings if they don’t. Again, with homosexuality, someone at church said something about it, and I commented that I felt we needed to be charitable and mindful that there are many in our own congregation who have family members or loved ones who are homosexual or who themselves struggle with homosexuality.
overit wrote:One woman told me she did not believe in education because it causes people to “get liberal ideas.”
I’d dismiss this woman outright and not give it a second thought. In fact, I think she needs more education on what our church leaders tell us.I’d side more with the prophet who says to get as much education as possible.
The more we can learn about other cultures, the more we can learn about history and our world around us, the better we are able to more clearly see ourselves, IMO.
Quote:If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we should find in each person’s life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility.
-Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
Racism and sexism is a problem in the church, I do not believe it defines the church.
Hi overit! I echo the other comments. I wish you could live in a more diverse area! Hang in there! Maybe we can offer a small corner of peace and understanding in your world.
see above reason for removal Welcome Overit and let me add my concern and deep saddness at reading your posts. Hurrah for moving to the East Coast! Go early if at all possible. I feel quite a bit of empathy for your situation and for your husbands (since I am also a husband of a feminist, educated very powerful and not shy about standing up for other people’s rights). Though I thankfully live in a much happier ward where we really do love one another and support each other in many many ways the cultural thing is still evident. We are a childless couple and as we were both teachers and busy and working with lots of kids we never made the next step to wanting to adopt children, if it wasn’t going to come naturally we weren’t going to push it. We have been marginalized all our lives though often turned to when the going gets tough (for exampleI am currently a youth sunday school Gospel Doctrine teacher because the kids have worn out two people in row in fairly short order — by the way I am getting along with them quite well and really enjoying them, maybe not having any of my own teenagers makes me a bit more tolerant AND my wife is back in the Primary presidency because no one else wants the job, we have a lot of ADHD kids it seems right now). I have never been called into a Bisphopric though a long term, faithful, tithe paying, going to the temple kind of family and we have few really good friends within the ward, no one really wants to have us in their homes messing up the minds of their daughters. Sigh, sorry that all got away on me and is nothing as severe as what you are dealing with.
Quote:The psychological damage I received from my last calling (or the women I served with) caused my husband to ask for my release. He then encouraged me to take a break from church for a while, which has NEVER happened. So, I am confronting the racism within the community while struggling with activity, and this has just made me wonder if organized religion ever really works?
I really like your husband!!!!! I have done this once in my life and it was crucial to my wife’s mental well being and I applaud both of you for being brave enough.
However as many have already said don’t get the gospel all messed up with “organized religion”. We do need the organization BUT it is supposed to be the support for your life and not a problem. I thankfully have never been in a ward with that much “culture burden” and am thankful for it. I have always lived in the boonies however and that I think has been a good thing.
Hold on to your testimony, seek spiritual strength and health whereever you find it and if you need to say away from Church for awhile for mental sanity do it. I am concerned about your kids though if Seminary is also a bit of problem.
I’m feeling it on this one. I have always struggled with the assumption of proper gender roles are/should be in the church, and in LDS culture. I know a couple who is separating, and the husband has cooked only one or two meals in 25 years of marriage. Ridiculous.
I know senior male members who have never changed a diaper, or cleaned a bathroom.
The other day I met one of our male ward members at the grocery store. He was looking around, because he didn’t know where the grocery carts were. His comment was that his wife takes care of that.
I am having a hard time facing Priesthood Meeting, because nary a Sunday goes by without liberal/Obama bashing. (I don’t mind people having political opinions, I just don’t think church or church activities are the forum for that, and I hate the assumption that if you are mormon, you must be republican.)
I have had to put filters on my email, because of all anti-Obama email I get from my ward members.
Makin’ me crazy.
Ignorance always resists education and knowledge. Education and knowledge may lose a battle or two, but I think generally wins out in the long term.
Unfortunately, judging people who are different as inferior is one of the most deeply ingrained “natural (wo)man” tendencies in existence. It has always been so, and it is so deeply ingrained that it is extremely hard to recognize, much less root out. One of my oldest son’s favorite songs is called “Everyone’s a Little Bit Racist” – by Avenue Q. [There is a bit of language that some might find offensive in the clip I’m linking, so decide whether or not you want to watch it. (
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9CSnlb-ymA )] It’s pretty instructive, imo.As someone who has helped raise more than one young black man, I think I understand the overall issue as well as a middle-aged white man can. It saddens me deeply, but it has helped me understand and gain charity as much as any other topic has. I also think “the Church” is far more progressive right now in terms of racial practices than most recognize – and much more than the vast majority of still-segregated Protestant churches I observed when I lived in the Deep South.
That’s truly an amazing paradox.
This is a little deviation from the topic, but I also defend the U.S. overall on issues like this. Between my missionary and military experience, I had the opportunity to live in other parts of the world and be deeply integrated into other cultures (as much as an outsider can in the time I had). We are messy and imperfect in our country about issues of racism and sexism, but we have a history of actually making it work over time. We actually deal with this and have to find solutions, being a “melting pot” nation. I did not observe this at all in other countries. They simply don’t deal with it, or deal with it much worse (overtly and violently). I am thinking of Pashtuns vs. other small ethnic minorities in Afghanistan, Hutus vs. Tutsis in Rwanda, Sunni vs Shia in Iraq. Those are all extreme examples, but there is similar attitudes in Europe and Asia (so-called modern, western democracies) that flat out exclude groups of people in their cultures. The reason, from my observations, was that they just didn’t have to deal with integrating cultures much, so they don’t. We taught a lot of people from Africa and the Middle East when I was a missionary in Germany. I can’t tell you how many times the German members would ask stupid, weird questions about the people we brought to Church. They weren’t trying to be mean or insensitive, really. They were nice people. They just had no clue about being sensitive and understanding of people who were so different.
Saw this quote today, which makes me continue to think education helps being able to deal with these types of issues. Quote:Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence.
-Robert FrostI was thinking about this thread, and I wanted to make two observations that I think are helpful in coping with stuff: 1 – we have to recognize the difference between human foibles that exist both in and out of the church (even if we are seeing them inside the church) and issues that inherently belong to the church (with a valid doctrinal basis, not just someone’s opinion or misunderstanding of doctrine).
2 – we have to resist the halo effect, in which one or two unpleasant pet issues eclipse our total church experience.
These two bits of advice work well for staying in the church or in any group of diverse individuals with diverse opinions: our companies, our communities, and our families.
hawkgrrrl wrote:I was thinking about this thread, and I wanted to make two observations that I think are helpful in coping with stuff:
1 – we have to recognize the difference between human foibles that exist both in and out of the church (even if we are seeing them inside the church) and issues that inherently belong to the church (with a valid doctrinal basis, not just someone’s opinion or misunderstanding of doctrine).
2 – we have to resist the halo effect, in which one or two unpleasant pet issues eclipse our total church experience.
These two bits of advice work well for staying in the church or in any group of diverse individuals with diverse opinions: our companies, our communities, and our families.
This is really good, Hawk. Thanks.
I lived in a small town for a few years and gossip/cliques were a huge problem in the ward and the neighborhood. The bishop dedicated a sacrament meeting to trying to help the people change. I don’t think it did much good. I felt a sense of relief when I left that environment. The place I live now has its share of gossip and cliques too, but for some reason it doesn’t seem nearly as bad. Isn’t gossip just the nature of small towns?
And I do live by and have heard of lots of people who didn’t want their kids listening to Obamas school speach. And while I think this hyper reaction was ridiculous, I didn’t get the sense that it was driven from a hatred of black people. I think it was all political…fear of socialism and the president indoctrinating the children….etc. Perhaps there are still pockets of racism in the church, but I must say that I just don’t see that kind of behavior anymore.
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