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I’ve been thinking about this a lot. If you feel that you made temple covenants prior to understanding what you were doing, then if you break a covenant is it a sin? (excluding adultery) How do you keep covenants when you are not convinced they are correct in there entirety? What and how do you repent of things in such a confusing state of mind? Here is an example (completely fictional though I know it happens. I know you all think this is me
🙄 🙄 but hey I’m a codependent anyway.):Say you are angry once you learn or feel the church has not been honest to you. So you decide FORGET IT I’m going to go take a drink, or watch porn etc. rebelling out of frustration and anger. You think: I mean Joseph Smith drank and married other men’s wives. He’s second to Christ in perfection, I deserve a break. So you go out and make a mistake or sin. Now what? Do you go to your Bishop? Does the sacrament take care of it? Do you need the priesthood to forgive you when you are struggling with some of their council?
I imagine a lot of people have experienced this and find themselves leaving the church ashamed or angry because they don’t believe or feel they really messed up. Or they decide that they need to talk to their bishop and repent. I’m sure this type of person goes back to the “ORTHODOX, STAGE 3” state of mind: “It’s better to just follow direction blindly in half misery then in fear of personal error/sin’s of “buffet” ideology. But if they have taken a drink the bishop might discipline them right? The options don’t seem so good in this state of mind and the cycle continues.”
How does a “Buffet Mormon” repent? What sins require meeting with a bishop versus partaking of the sacrament? (I realize this is subjective to personal feelings. I would like to hear your different points of view.) If we feel we need to repent (which we all need to do throughout our lives) does the sacrament take care of the sin? If so then why do we go to meet with the bishop to repent? (I believe if you watch porn, WHICH IS HUGE IN UTAH, you could be asked to return a temple recommend or stop taking the sacrament.)
I ask this because in the past I have had times where I went to my bishop to discuss my sins. Though my sins aren’t major, like adultery, I have always used this approach. Going to the bishop after a sin was taught to me by my parents as a child and feels very ingrained into my “orthodox” repentance process. At what point do you know God has forgiven you? Is the potential for SIN greater as a “buffet mormon?”
I have a friend who has mental breakdowns and is seeing a psychologist for this mental illness. He is SO codependent that when he SINS he literally may go insane. Doctors are still unsure of what his illness is and have run tests to rule out Epilepsy. The psychologist keeps giving him drugs as it’s clear he needs it after each breakdown. But he eventually stops the meds and all is fine until he breaks a commandment and SIN’s. His mistakes/sins in his life is viewed as so bad by him that it triggers another mental breakdown. Now does Christ really want us to be that hard on ourselves? (It’s really scary in my mind.)
I think that repentence involves asking forgiveness and making restitution for the sin between you, God, and whoever else was harmed. Most of the time this can be done without the Bishop being involved. I personally only think you need to go to the Bishop if the Church is harmed (I view him more as the Church’s representative than God’s representative anyways). WoW – doesn’t harm the church unless you are in a high leadership calling and others see you breaking it, so usually Bishop doesn’t need to be involved (he’d call you in if it was that obvious anyways). I really only see needing to go to Bishop if you harm the church in some way, such as embezzeling church funds or stealing church property. When it comes to purely moral things that don’t affect the church, keep it between you, God, and whoever else was damaged. My 2 cents . . . WoW violations are not confession sins. Likewise looking at porn in a single instance (although your wife might feel harmed – you may want to discuss it with her). However, if either of these leads to an addiction problem, going to your bishop to deal with the addiction might be a good idea (or to a professional counselor). The church does offer a very good addiction recovery program for all kinds of addictions. hawkgrrrl wrote:WoW violations are not confession sins. Likewise looking at porn in a single instance (although your wife might feel harmed – you may want to discuss it with her). However, if either of these leads to an addiction problem, going to your bishop to deal with the addiction might be a good idea (or to a professional counselor). The church does offer a very good addiction recovery program for all kinds of addictions.
I agree that porn likely damages a spouse and should be addressed with them as part of the repentence process.
I have a mormon friend with sex addiction, and from what I have heard, it is probably more useful to speak to a professional counselor to get real help, rather than consulting with the Bishop or going through an addiction recovery program that is geared toward the generalities of addiction. One should get a program that is specifically designed for that specific addiction.
I think repentence is a key principle of the gospel…for all people, including those considering themselves “buffet” mormons. It helps us rely on Christ’s atonement to be at one with God. It helps us prioritize our dependence on Christ and less on wordly things or minute details. So I am more concerned with what I think God is going to think of me than what the church leaders think of me. I can still go to my church leaders as priesthood holders with keys to help guide me through repentence, but my journey is personal with God, not with what church leaders think I should do. I try to keep in mind that repentence is about change, and callibration…not about rules and punishment. I hold my covenants serious I took in the temple and elsewhere…but there are some things of more important to me and my current journey to be close to God…so I’m not using tallies or checklists from church leaders to take my temperature on how I’m doing. But I do meet with my bishop regularly to get guidance and feedback to help me on my journey.
I don’t know if that helps, but that is just where I am currently.
How would a “buffet mormon” repent differently than the rest? I honesty think the principle of repentance is the same for everyone. All are invited to reconcile their lives to God. Repentance is the way we do that. And I think a lot of us pick and choose whether we admit it or not. We may not even do it consciously as spiritual immaturity keeps us from things we aren’t ready for. Orthodoxy, imo, is just another way of picking and choosing as one focuses more on performances and checklists while conveniently overlooking inner processes. I think the scriptures call that “whited sepulcurs.” I honestly think repentance comes down to some really basic questions. What do I want? What does God want? What parts of me are in agreement with God and which parts are in opposition? And then it is a question of reconciliation and whether or not a person can put God’s will first.
Repentance, in my mind, is one of the kindest parts of the gospel because sin, whether we see it or not, is so damaging to us! It is such a blessing because we don’t have to do it alone. Deity changes us!! Isn’t that a tremendous thing? Hyper self incrimination/ punishment and shame are NOT required and really an antithesis to the whole process. We waste a lot of energy hating and mercilessly beating ourselves. We also waste energy staying away from a bishop or the repentance process out of fear or pride. And using a bishop over every little thing, I think is improper as well as we should really trust our own judgement sometimes. I think we know when we blow it.
Repentance is really a gentle process when you think about it. No it isn’t pain free. Healing is sometimes painful. But repentance is the fastest way to peace and wholeness and something that should be understood as a message of hope!
Living the gospel is a solitary activity that we just happen to do along side others sometimes. Comparions to others or competition or judginess…..it really is such a stupid waste of time. I really think it is important to get independent and clear about why we are obeying in the first place and I think there is a lot to be said about proper understanding of gospel concepts….the kind that comes from study and spiritual tutorials. And I really think it takes a lot of introspection and humility and courage to live in honesty and truth. If we can’t live in honesty and truth, then what kind of foundation do we have anyway?
I agree that the Bishop is mostly a representative for the Church. If I did something that jeopardized my standing as a member of the Church, I would personally feel a desire to let the Bishop know. Bishops don’t grant us forgiveness in any way, shape or form though. That isn’t why we choose to go to one and perhaps confess a sin. They are there IMO to help us seek forgiveness if we need help, more like a counselor. I don’t really feel like I need that help. I understand the process. If I harm someone else or hurt their feelings, I need to work it out with them and seek their forgiveness. If it is a “sin” that harms nobody but myself, then to me it’s just between me and God.
I don’t think there is really a whole lot that needs to be confessed to a Bishop. That’s my opinion, and I am solidly in the Buffet category. And if I had some type of serious life problem or addiction, I would depend much more on a professional. Bishops are nice people for the most part. It is really hit or miss though, and few if any have real training or experience helping people with serious problems.
Just a technicality first: Quote:He (Joseph Smith) is second to Christ in perfection . . .
I’ve never heard that said by anyone in the Church, and it certainly doesn’t fit anything he said of himself.
I think you need to completely rethink your view of repentance. If you want my take on Repentance, read the following links:
“A Fresh View of Repentance” (
http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/01/rethinking-repentance.html “More Thoughts on Repentance” (
http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2008/06/more-thoughts-on-repentance.html Fantastic blog posts, Ray! I think the question of the OP is also the answer. From an orthodox TBM perspective, being a “buffet Mormon” is next to murder. And, if you’re practicing your faith in the buffet line, the next principle of the gospel is repentance. Go for buffet repentance. When someone let’s go of the “indoctrination”, and embraces the “good” and the “light” inside, one knows what’s right by God or what’s not. You really don’t need someone to tell you it. You know, really.
I don’t remember anything in the Temple about the WOW. Yes, it is a question asked to gain admittance, but as far as the covenants made during the Endowment Ceremony, it’s not included. I no longer think its wrong, if you are of age and chose to partake in an alcoholic beverage. I have a few from time to time and I don’t count it as a sin. I do think getting drunk is a sin, as it’s harmful to the body and potentially others if you were to say drive.
I do consider smoking a sin, because it’s harmful to the body, but then again I’ve struggled with smoking for years off & on, I’ve talked to my Bishop about it before too. I don’t really see where the church would need to get involved, unless they wanted to help, as far as to judge me, I don’t really need that I already feel pretty bad about it.. and plan to quit again!
I see the WOW as helpful instruction, but I don’t know if it was meant to be a commandment, and now that it is, I only see it being enforced if someone messes up on the ‘No’s’ included, no one follows up to see if you’re following the other council. I don’t really know how that would work, but I do think we need to put more of an emphasis on the ‘do’ side of the WOW.
Take this for what it’s worth though, I’ve got 50lbs to lose and I usually work about 10-12 hours a day so I’m pretty rushed and eating healthy is something I try to do, but usually falls by the wayside once I’m at work and have skipped breakfast and I’m starving by 2.. and thinking taco bell is quick and close for lunch!
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