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The following is something that struck me almost two years ago as I was pondering being poor in spirit. I had believed the central principle for some time prior to this epiphany, but the specific aspect of salvation as it applies to this life is something I had not put into words previously. I was looking through old posts on my blog, and I felt like I should share the following excerpts with everyone here. I hope it helps someone: We decry deathbed repentance, particularly for those who consciously choose to procrastinate repentance until the end – to do what they want to do until they are facing death and the possibility of judgment. At the same time, too many members view grace, faith and works as follows:
Quote:I must do everything I possibly can do; I must give my all; I must wear out myself trying to do what He has asked me to do – THEN He will accept my effort and help me do more.
That might not be the exact same mentality as “deathbed” repentance, but it is at least “hospital bed” repentance.In very real terms, it is saying, “I will let you know when I need you,” which really is the same mentality as the one who procrastinates the request for help until his deathbed. It also means that I will not receive the help He can give AS I struggle– which means I will not experience His freedom and joy until my frustration nearly (or completely) breaks me. Yes, I will then be blessed, but I will have missed SO much in the meantime. Hillary Weeks has a song entitled “Unwritten”. The central message is, in my own words:
Quote:“As I review the pages of the book of my life, I am grateful for what I read (what I have experienced), but I am most grateful for what has remained unwritten – those things from which the grace of God has shielded me – those things I have not had to experience – those things from which I have been saved **in this life**.”
Whether it is viewed literally OR symbolically, Jesus, as the Christ, saved us from the effects of our actions in the next life, but Jesus, as the exemplary man, showed us a way to be saved from much of the effect of our fallen existence in this life. That is why, imo, the vast majority of our canon is focused not on the NEXT life but rather on changing ourselves during THIS life. In a very real way, not accepting what He paid so dearly to provide until we have exhausted ourselves is no different than not accepting that His offer was ever made in the first place, since they both tell Him to get lost until we get a handle on it on our own. That’s worth pondering all by itself.
This is amazing, Ray! Something I’ve felt deeply in the last year or so.
I will say though, that Mormon culture doesn’t seem to reflect your statement that the “majority of our canon” is focused on this life rather than the next. Yes, there’s a focus on obedience and steadfastness and enduring to the end but the motivator always seems to be the prize in the next life. Okay, not always but mostly, by far. Or something. You know what I mean.
😳 Thanks Ray Profound and somewhat troubling thought, the sort of thing that sticks with you all day (I’m not sure always why but working in the tractor for me is an intensely spiritual time since I have something to do that is cruicial and detailed but with the conscious mind focusing on all that it lets the rest of me sort of wander around with ideas) and I am sure this will be one of the things I ponder today. Thanks, it is one of the great values of the board.
It strikes me that this idea is also all tangled up with the uneasy Mormon understanding of “grace” which we kind of resist because the Evangelicals are so fixed on it but which we must also accept at a deep level. We are a “works” culture and can easily ignore that Christ has sacrificed for us and we have to recognize that ultimate act of salvation.
After my perspective changed so radically, I think a lot more about Salvation and Exaltation in this life. I feel more “saved” now than I ever did before, previously expecting all my flaws and these answers and concerns to be solved in the next life. I was always waiting, waiting and waiting for God to wave His magic wand and do something for me. If I only worked hard enough, if I was only good enough, I might get His attention.
I used to make it so hard for myself…
swim, think about it these terms: Most Chrisitan theologies speak of eternal reward as a radical change from this life – physical to spiritual form, work to rest, kids and family to individual, growth to “rest” (stagnation, imo), etc. Mormonism’s framing, however, especially over the last decade, puts it in terms of “becoming” – of completion and continued progression. We speak of the “same sociality” – of families continuing throughout “the eternities” – of a “restoration” of all things – of an atonement (eternal unity with the divine), etc.
Often, we use similar words, but the core idea is that there really is no “afterlife” in the ideal – since nothing really ever ends or stops progressing for the righteous. Even after mortal death, it’s still, at its core, “this life”.
I totally get what you’re saying Ray. And I agree that the theology is quite beautiful as well as radical in the context of the Christian belief spectrum. I was simply referring to the practical side. What I’ve heard/felt/seen in SM, SS and EQ. Lessons and testimonies of obedience, perfection, following, far outweigh those of love, charity, grace. Maybe it’s semantics but the concept you are talking about is “becoming” and the concept I hear at church (not so much GC) is “following”. I’m really not wanting to be critical and your concept of salvation in this life is astonishingly beautiful and joyful. I guess what I’m saying is that I would love for my children in primary to sing “I Can Be Like Jesus Today” instead of “Follow the Prophet”.
swim, fwiw, there are FAR more songs in the primary song book and the regular hymnal about becoming like Jesus than there are about following the prophet – and they are sung MUCH more frequently in most wards and branches. If that’s not the case in yours, it’s worth mentioning – gently, but persistently. Just remember the 7:1 rule in this case: Your children might be singing about Jesus and becoming like Him 87.5% of the time, but it’s that 1/8 of the time when they sing “Follow the Prophet” that is going to stick in your memory. I mean this gently, but make sure your sensitivity to this issue doens’t cause a conflict where none actually exists – and if it really does exist, address it calmly and lovingly.
Honestly, I’m not there yet but I am struggling with the concept of allowing/helping my children through the stages of faith. I feel compelled to try to get them past stage three quickly so they can begin their own journey in stage 4. I know this is wrong but I don’t know how to demonstrate that I feel things as myth when they are being taught those same things as literal in church. Maybe this should be a separate thread or maybe it’s already been discussed in another thread and I missed it.
Easy example is the garden of eden story. This is still basically taught as a literal event in primary, maybe even seminary (my kids aren’t there yet). How is this literalness reconciled with my own belief of the non-literalness of this event, when I’m talking to my boys about it?
Swim, that is such a good question. One thing I know is that most LDS adults I know still view the Garden Creation story as 100% literal. I am taking the OT Institute class and there was only one other person in the class who does not view it as 100% literal (out of about 15). I think we can have salvation and peace in this life. I am sad that we have swung so far from this concept. It’s right there in our scriptures, though!
Moroni 7:3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven.
I really like that passage. And I just noticed that “church” is not capitalized.
Alma also talks quite a bit about entering into the rest of our Lord. Alma 12 and 13. It really seems like when we have pure love we find ourselves in that rest.
Another problem I see is that so many of my LDS friends are scared of the judgement bar. IOW, they have no idea where they are going. They all feel like they will not measure up, not be found worthy of eternal life. It makes me so sad because that is not how the Good News is supposed to make people feel, IMO.
Old-Timer wrote:
Hillary Weeks has a song entitled “Unwritten”. The central message is, in my own words:Quote:“As I review the pages of the book of my life, I am grateful for what I read (what I have experienced), but I am most grateful for what has remained unwritten – those things from which the grace of God has shielded me – those things I have not had to experience – those things from which I have been saved **in this life**.”
Whether it is viewed literally OR symbolically, Jesus, as the Christ, saved us from the effects of our actions in the next life, but Jesus, as the exemplary man, showed us a way to be saved from much of the effect of our fallen existence in this life. That is why, imo, the vast majority of our canon is focused not on the NEXT life but rather on changing ourselves during THIS life. In a very real way, not accepting what He paid so dearly to provide until we have exhausted ourselves is no different than not accepting that His offer was ever made in the first place, since they both tell Him to get lost until we get a handle on it on our own. That’s worth pondering all by itself.
Wow Ray, This is alot to ponder and so beautiful. It reminds me of some things I read in “Following Christ’ by Robinson when he talks about a breakdown his wife had. She was beating her self up for not being able to be “Molly Mormon’ and do it all. Common problem among lds women which brought about a ksl program years ago called, “Mormon Women and Depression” and the big use of prozac in Utah. Robinson helped his wife understand what the atonement was really about and explains the problem so many Mormons have about ‘grace.’ Our mind-set in the church is to reach the goal of ‘godhood.’ We often hear the saying, “God helps those who help themselves.” Brigham Young taught about “Personal Responsibility’ and becoming strong and independent. We associate “Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother” as parents who are trying to raise us up to become mature miniture adult ‘gods.” We focus on becoming like Christ, as He is our earthly example of ‘godhood’ and that every decision and action we choose brings us either closer to ‘godhood’ or to becoming mediorce or like the devil. Many in the church have inferiority complexes, like they are not worthy of God’s love or help, until they ‘prove’ themselves. I remember a TR interview by a stake leader I had in Oregon years ago. It seems most members tremble with fear doing those interviews, never feeling ‘worthy’ enough. Anyway, this stake leader asks me, “What makes you think you deserve a temple recommend?” He was so cocky and arrogant when he said that and it really took me aback. I was already feeling unworthy and like a ‘worm’ but answered back with, “Well, I can answer all the TR questions correctly.”So, this feeling of ‘unworthiness’ is often a Mormon mentality we grow up with. Never deserving of God’s love or help. We grow up believing that grace and love are conditional upon worthiness. This is one of the reasons my daughter left the church actually. Love from her dad and the church was always dependent on whether she behaved herself and met ‘their’ expectations. She embraced Christ in the Evangelical world because there ‘grace’ felt like unconditional love. She felt like she did not have to ‘prove’ herself all the time and that God loved her just as she was. I was 30 years old before that concept hit me. I used to be so hard on myself if I made mistakes. I was often intimated by strong critical people. I had a hair customer that racked me over the coals once for not doing her hair like she wanted. I remember crying myself to sleep and beating myself up for not pleasing this customer. Then then the thought hit me, “What do you think this earth life is about?” Isn’t it for making mistakes, learning and growing? For the first time in my life, I suddenly realized I had value simply because I was a child of God, a human being, not because of all my talents or works. For the first time, I gave myself permission to make mistakes. What a paradigm change moment that was for me. Then is when I started becoming more self confident and standing up for myself. Then is when I began notincing how much God was helping me daily in my everyday life. There have been so many times, when I felt angels surround me to avoid serious car accidents, or recieve inspiration for everyday things.
Evangelicals often ask me this question: “Are you Saved? If you died tonight, do you know you are going to heaven? I usually anwered with, “What Do you mean by ‘saved.” They would say, “Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?” I said, “I have, but would then show them the scripture where Jesus says, “He who endures to the end, is saved.” They are shocked to know this scripture even exists and I simply say, “I have not endured to the end yet.” Now, I understand more what that scripture means and what the word ‘enduring’ means. Most people feel like it means you hold your breath, ‘grit your teeth’, and suffering alot of pain without complaining. I like to think of it as accepting God’s love and help as I struggle with the trials of this life.
I really love this idea you presented Ray. Theone of experincing right now all the things the atonment is saving us from in this life. To have this daily walk with Christ and feeling His love throughout our daily tasks is such a beautiful thing. Life is just too hard for me to handle all by myself. I do believe in angels that watch out for us daily and that God uses each of us as ‘angels’ to help each other as well. You are a nice angel Ray.
I couldn’t agree more. There is a tendency by some to “tough it out” so to speak, without seeking the enabling power of Christ as they travel on their journey. Being humble and seeking his grace is advised in the scriptures: “And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.” (Ether 12:27) There is a source of power beyond our own that is there for the asking. Why wait? This post is just over two years old, and most who comment regularly now weren’t around when it was active, so I thought I would bump it up for further discussion. Since I never commented before now, I’ll just say this thread is very much along the lines of how I think since my faith shifted.
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