- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
I’ve been working through the Yale course on the Old Testament and Professor Christine Hayes is an excellent speaker with lots of interesting insights, it is a very worthwhile set of mp3s which now look to be residing on my ipod for quite some time. However I found this in her introduction and have been pondering it ever since: Quote:Thirdly, the Bible’s not for children. I have a 12-year-old and an 8-year-old. I won’t let them read it. I won’t let them read it. Those “Bible Stories for Children” books, they scare me. They really scare me. It’s not suitable for children. The subject matter in the Bible is very adult, particularly in the narrative texts. There are episodes of treachery and incest and murder and rape. And the Bible is not for naive optimists. It’s hard-hitting stuff. And it speaks to those who are courageous enough to acknowledge that life is rife with pain and conflict, just as it’s filled with compassion and joy. It’s not for children in another sense. Like any literary masterpiece, the Bible is characterized by a sophistication of structure and style and an artistry of theme and metaphor, and believe me, that’s lost on adult readers quite often. It makes its readers work.
She goes through a number of things that the Bible isn’t. It isn’t a book but a library of documents some contradiciting others. It isn’t a book of pious tales about saintly people, in fact lots of the people do quite disgusting things. It isn’t a book of systematic theology, theology is there but embedded in the narrative of a people. Anyway, very insightful and interesting but the one about kids is the most interesting and from a Mormon point of view the most controversial I would think.
What’s your take?
I totally understand Dr. Hayes concern but I view it as a bit of hyperbole. There are age-appropriate bible and BoM story books for children that are sufficiently “watered-down” as to not be traumatic IMHO. It’s true that many childrens’ first exposure to serious and troubleing themes are through religious teachings.
I remember a little plaque on my wall as a kid with the prayer that ends:
“if I should die before I wake,
I pray the Lord my soul to take”
Scared the heck out of me
They seriously have to be edited for children. Seriously! But, no matter how they are edited, we teach our primary kids that killing people is okay if God commands it. Lying is okay if God commands it. It’s hard to make a war story not be about war without compromising the integrity of the story/myth. But, I have trouble with this. I’m taking the OT institute class and there is a lot of seriously WACKED out stuff in it!
We coddle our kids too much nowadays as it is. Can’t handle it? Hogwash. Shouldn’t read it all by themselves with no input from parents or adults? Sure, I can buy that. I want my kids to read it – but I make sure we talk about it as they do so. The problem, imo, is that in many non-literalist homes there isn’t much scriptural interaction between kids and parents – and the parents who tend to read the scriptures with their children the most are the literalists.
If those families are going to be defining the Bible, and if those who teach groups are those who define, then abso-stinking-lutely we need to make sure our kids read it – so that we can be defining it, as well.
Ray, this is where I am conflicted. How do I teach my child that the scriptures are not historical and then send them to SS where they are told that they are?
I have no idea how to teach my kids things that are in conflict with current church teachings.
just me wrote:Ray, this is where I am conflicted.
How do I teach my child that the scriptures are not historical and then send them to SS where they are told that they are?
I have no idea how to teach my kids things that are in conflict with current church teachings.
That is a tough one. DW and I are also struggling with this and our 2 year old, luckily there is still some time for us to figure this out.
just me, that is a different situation than mine. I do believe the scriptures are “historical” – just not with all the content being “literal”.
I teach my children that much of scripture is literal and much is figurative / allegorical / mythological – and that each and every one of us needs to figure out how we are going to make those distinctions – and that different distinctions are fine, as long as they are carefully considered and personally owned but open to alteration. I tell them that BOTH extremes are the easy way out – that it’s trying to figure out an acceptable middle ground that is hard. I also tell them, however, that it’s only in the difficult things in life that real growth occurs – and it’s only in making those distinctions that PERSONAL revelation occurs.
Think about that:
Imo, NEITHER extreme involves personal revelation, since EITHER extreme merely is shutting down intellectually and defaulting to a no-conflict setting. I believe reality almost always lies somewhere in the middle of the “opposites in all things” – which is how I have come to see EVERY volume of scripture in our own canon AND most of the holy writings of other religions.
I really do think, for example, that the Book of Mormon is an actual, “historical” record (especially since I think 1 Nephi is an impossibility for its translation period without divine inspiration), and I really do accept the PofGP as “inspired” and “historical” (even if not a literal translation of the physical prompt) in a much looser sense than the BofM. I think most of the Old Testament is figurative and mythological – but of great power and importance in showing how others perceived their relationship with God. I believe most of the New Testament is reasonably accurate and true to the authors’ convictions – even as I believe much of it is the result of conflicting folklore and differing apostolic perspectives. I believe the D&C is an accurate reflection of Joseph’s sincere attempts to convey what he believed God told him, even if much (probably most) of the content wasn’t delivered in the way that most members assume – God’s mouth to Joseph’s ear in direct vision.
Yeah, I think kids should read the scriptures – even if only to understand how other people viewed their relationship with God. There is great power in that alone – especially if it motivates them to try to articulate their own view of that relationship.
As usual Ray has a very balanced, thoughtful stance and I guess I need to agree with him on the “historicity” but not necessarily the “literallness” of the Old Testament. Though I have worked through many of my issues with the Church the difficulty coming up on me is the teaching of the Old Testament to a youth Sunday School class and I am almost in agreement with Christine Hayes but in our culture we have already exposed kids to Old Testament “heros” for a long time, so I guess that sort of evens it all out. Just Me, I sympathize with your situation but keep in mind that we do have the 8th article of faith : “We believe the Bible to be the word of God insofar as it is translated correctly, etc. etc.” (Hmm now did I get that right?). Anyway we are in the unusual situation where as a Church we acknowledge that the Bible has been messed with but when it comes to curriculum we treat it as if it were inerrant.
One of the “historical” problems that we have is that often we as church members are reacting to “scholarship” that is already dated before it gets to us both from the Biblical scholars and from the archaeologists and historians. So let me talk about the conquest of Canaan by Joshua. Much is made of the fact that there is not a destruction layer in the conquered cities that the archaeologists can locate to the right time frame and therefore no conquest must have taken place. However if you read the Bible itself carefully very few of the conquered cities were destroyed, the people were killed or driven out but the cities themselves were then ocuupied by the tribes. So we have a situation where the historicity was questioned widely and the conclusion accepted and “built into” the “common knowledge” and the newer thinking has not made it into general awareness. I will be working on this a fair amount over the next few months preparing for my class and I will keep you updated on historicity issues if you want.
Not to wear out the name of Fowler too much, but I am actually reading the book right now so something came to mind. I forget all the reasoning, but I recall he mentioned children in the 3+ age range benefiting and wanting stories that had consequences and “reality” in them. Of course not crude or too graphic, but I think it had to do with their psychological development. Stories where people suffer consequences, die, are injured and bad things happen give them language and images to help process the world — things they experience from the more powerless and inexperienced perspective. They form images of justice, right-wrong, consequences, mercy, compassion and other things from stories. I remember that comment from Dr. Hayes, and feeling that I disagreed a little with her. It should be watered down or age-appropriate, but the Bible (and other “Scripture”) finds lasting places in cultures precisely based on the fact that the stories do these things for us. They are enduring and important from that standpoint much more than their factual and historical “truth.”
Another example comes to mind. There is an old classic German children book called “Das Struwwelpeter” (roughly translated: the wild boy). It is a series of very short stories with pictures about children disobeying their parents and starving to death, drowning, burning to ashes for playing with matches and other horrible ends. It’s a bit shocking, but enduring literature
Again, I can’t stress enough that I am thinking of all this at appropriate levels for children and within a positive family environment. For better or worse, we have been more permissive with our children than other parents we know. So far, I think my older children (ranging from 18 yrs down) are very level headed, thoughtful and empathic people.
I honestly think we underestimate children sometimes. They often know truth about situations in their hearts even though they don’t have the verbal skills to communicate it. And anyway…when children are growing up aren’t they to be learning correct principles such as honesty and obedience and other lessons of character? If we want our kids to know God and become familiar with his guiding Spirit, why can’t they start learning those lessons early?
I’m sorry, I don’t think I explained myself very well. I don’t believe God commands his children to kill people. Ever. So, I am not only facing a problem with the OT but also the BoM, which we teach is a correct translation. We teach that sometimes God tells people to murder and we must be obedient. I don’t see a work around.
Even if the scriptures are a 100% historical literal truth, I have a problem.
I read the bible when I was a kid…I didn’t understand much or didn’t remember any stories about incest or rape or murder or anything she said she was worried about. I remember David and Goliath, Daniel and the Lions Den, and I remember the walls of Jericho, and I remember the flood. Those stories taught me to be obedient.
Of course, I remember stories like Hansel and Gretal and the gingerbread house, jack and the bean stalk, and the 3 billy goats gruff…now those stories freaked me out!
You wanna hear some freaky children stories, you should read some old German fairy tales…they were gruesome and graphic. Maybe different cultures coddled or terrorized the children too much in trying to teach the lessons, but the kids are pretty resilient. Sometimes I think some parents project their adult issues back on to their kids, and like Valoel stated, kids are at a different development stage so that doesn’t seem to work in my eyes.
I just wouldn’t put the bible at the top of my list of things kids should worry about these days.
To answer the question: Yes, kids should read the bible.
just me wrote:I don’t believe God commands his children to kill people. Ever. So, I am not only facing a problem with the OT but also the BoM, which we teach is a correct translation. We teach that sometimes God tells people to murder and we must be obedient. I don’t see a work around.
I think that is an excellent example of the rich resource we have in “scripture.” These are universal stories with a great depth of application. A story of Nephi killing Laban, or an OT story of whole cities being massacred could be a springboard for a fantastic discussion with a young person (details should be adjusted to fit their age). Since you don’t believe God would ever tell us to kill people, you can ask your child what they think about the story. Ask them if they think they should hurt or kill someone to be obedient. Talk about it and share your opinion. You can tell them you don’t believe God would ever ask someone to murder. The story provides you the context for the learning moment.
Listen to children talk about what they think. This to me is the best medicine there is to prevent our fears of “indoctrination” or “brain washing.” Children really like to be treated like they are intelligent, which they are. You can expose them to ideas and decision making. They eat this stuff up. They want to know if things are “real” or not. My children tell me the most fascinating and beautiful things. These themes and issues not only crop up in real life (on different levels), but are inescapable concepts in all cultures. Even the children of atheists pickup on these big questions of life from our culture and stories. What will our children do when they hear a news story of someone who kills because they think God told them to do it? This really happens all the time in the world (just to pick an example). How do our children process that? They need language and resources. They need parents to help them navigate the world.
Just the other day, my youngest son who is 7 years old was sick and watching a new TV show called “Troops.” It’s about teens who fight monsters — you know, normal teens by day, but secretly save the world from monsters with laser guns as part of a secret program. It’s a classic theme. He said “I am really scared after watching the show because it seems real.” He wanted to talk about it. We talked about monsters and what “stories” are all about, and what is real and not. You could see the gears just turning in his mind. I think it was a bit of a regression moment for him because he reads Goosebumps and other books like that, and is quite used to things I would think are more “scary” than that show. Without that moment of him experiencing the story, we would not have had the discussion. The discussion was really good and positive.
The thing that makes me proud and frustrated at the same time is my older children. They actively disagree with me and my wife about things, and they are really good now at communicating and defending their positions.
😆 My wife and I are both fans of natural medicine, the tree-hugging types. Our oldest son is starting college and wants to study chemistry and/or medicine. He tells us all the time why the stuff he grew up with is a bunch of bunk. How’s that for brainwashing?Valoel, thank you. That was very helpful. I think I even feel better. just me, I’m not really sure if God would command one of his children to kill another of his children who is defenseless, but I do believe that it might be necessary in some VERY limited circumstances. Maybe the story of Nephi and Laban can be a launching pad for that type of discussion – that almost nothing at the general level is a universal answer in every individual situation and that we can disagree with someone’s actions without comdemning him/her.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.