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I often think about this as I sit in testimony meeting, and I’m interested in hearing from all of you. For me personally, I’m comfortable with: “I am grateful for my membership in this church”
or even
“I have a testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ”
This one is relatively recent for me. Of course I don’t need to get into all the details of what that testimony is, or my personal understanding/interpretation of what Jesus actually taught. I do think it is similar enough with common thought in the church that I don’t feel deceptive in expressing this. But that comes completely from the perspective of my own understanding.
What are some of your thoughts?
Thank you for starting this thread, Orson. I was actually thinking of staring it also, as I was sitting in testimony meeting yesterday thinking that from now on…I will refer to the meeting as: “Starving Storytelling”.
😈 When I see what the majority of testimonies are in this meeting, I don’t think I have a problem saying I could share a testimony and think it would be any different than what anyone else says. I think this sums up my testimony right now:
“I personally believe in Jesus Christ and God the Father, and have a testimony in the gospel of Jesus Christ, and that as I seek meaning in it as Christ taught it, I can become a happier person.”
Right now, where I’m at, I would leave out a specific reference to the church being true because in my mind it can mean many things that need to be parsed to fully express my belief (not that it isn’t true…just that it is more complicated to me). But I don’t need to focus on what I don’t believe…I still believe lots of things, and that is what I would share.
I’ve gotten up and born a testimony a few times over the past year. I almost never use the words “I know” unless I also include at least a brief set of comments to clarify how I came to that conclusion. Funny enough, I had this view for most of my adult life. My first mission president (who was a crazy person) actually gave great advice and training on this subject. He taught us NOT to use a lot of “fluff” when bearing our testimonies as missionaries. He said it diluted the power of our words. “I know from the bottom of my heart, from the depths of my soul and with all the fiber of my being that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world.”
vs.
“I testify that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world.”
Anyway … I digress.
When I bear my testimony, I talk about God and Christ and knowing them through my personal experiences or by the power of the Spirit. I talk about how the Gospel is effective and has made me a better and more holy person, which I believe. I prefer to stick to making factual statements like I am actually “testifying” of something and explaining how and why religion affected my life. I rarely if ever use the word “true.” I just don’t need to, and it is such a vague word anyways.
I don’t get up to give an update to the world on all the problems I experienced in the past month since I last updated everyone
😈 I personally don’t like using the word “testimony” in a testimony. In the Church context a testimony should be an expression of faith/belief and using the word “testimony” in a testimony feels like I’m doing a circular definition. I really dislike when people say they “know” things. What do people actually know? I think people can only know their own experiences. I know what I ate for breakfast. I don’t know that God exists. I believe that God exists based on my experiences. It says in the Book of Mormon that “faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things.” I think that it’s not a stretch to say that faith is not to have knowledge either. Faith is a choice. You choose to believe in something. Knowledge is not a choice. When people say they “know” things that they cannot know, to me, that takes away from faith and choosing, which I believe is contrary to the nature of God. I think that people say the word “know” because they believe things strongly and they are just trying to make their words more powerful and because it is so common. I am trying to not let it bother me so much.
When I go to the pulpit at a testimony meeting, I say that I believe things. I often try to explain why I believe what I say I believe. It might go like this:
“I believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior. I believe that He died so that we can be cleansed from our sins. I have felt the forgiveness that I believe comes from the Atonement of Jesus Christ. . . .”
When it comes to the Church, if I feel like saying something, I try to say something positive. I might say, “I believe that the Church helps me to become who my Heavenly Father wants me to be.” Or “Meeting with people at church and learning from them helps me to grow closer to God.”
nightwalden wrote:It says in the Book of Mormon that “faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things.” I think that it’s not a stretch to say that faith is not to have knowledge either. Faith is a choice. You choose to believe in something. Knowledge is not a choice. When people say they “know” things that they cannot know, to me, that takes away from faith and choosing, which I believe is contrary to the nature of God. I think that people say the word “know” because they believe things strongly and they are just trying to make their words more powerful and because it is so common. I am trying to not let it bother me so much.
I agree Faith is a choice, but I strongly feel that faith is based on knowledge, and perhaps that is part of a different thread, but related to testimony. But to me, it is important to establish there is a relationship between faith and knowledge, perhaps that is how I differentiate faith or belief from wishes or dreams. I just think that one cannot have a testimony of something they don’t have knowledge of. In a court of law, a witness is not called to testify of hypothetical scenarios…a witness is called to testify of what they know (as far as they know correctly). One cannot have faith in a God that you do not know. There is some level of knowledge that “God” means something to you (all powerful, all loving, omnipotent … whatever … but you know what God means to you even if it is identified as an “unknowable being” that is still knowledge of something), and you may believe strongly in that…but you can’t believe in something you don’t know about. There are differing levels of knowledge, I think. And when I hear some people say “I know Joseph Smith saw God” – it is not the same level of knowledge as “I know I have $10 in my wallet” – but it can still be a knowledge based on spiritual witness and what one knows about spiritual witnesses.
I went down a road for a while of starting to doubt I can “KNOW” anything, but through my philosophical studies, I learned at some point I can accept certain assumptions as knowledge to me based on the evidence and build off of that…and so I have let go of wondering if I live in “the Matrix” and all is a dream.
nightwalden wrote:When I go to the pulpit at a testimony meeting, I say that I believe things. I often try to explain why I believe what I say I believe. It might go like this:
“I believe that Jesus Christ is my Savior. I believe that He died so that we can be cleansed from our sins. I have felt the forgiveness that I believe comes from the Atonement of Jesus Christ. . . .”
I really like this testimony NW. Especially the part you say you “felt” the forgiveness. That to me is a witness of how you know…not just using a microphone to say words. I really like that. Usually, these are the types of statements in Sacrament meeting that touch me!Personally, I think it is probably best to just say there is a difference between personal/spiritual “knowing” and physical “knowing.” Physical knowledge can be verified. Personal knowledge can’t. As Elder Oaks said “I know I love my wife” is personal and subjective, so does that make it an improper use of the word “know”? I can understand the argument for “I believe I love my wife”, scientifically this is probably technically more accurate. I mean who can nail down love in the first place? Is “I know I have faith in God” really very different from “I believe God exists” or “I know God lives”? They all refer to personal/spiritual “knowledge” which is just notthe same thing as physical/scientific knowledge. I don’t like the use of the word “know,” because it seems like it sets too high a bar for what people are actually claiming. I’m probably just too philosophical for that. We’re talking about belief or hope and the willingness to act on it, not “knowing” the way you know facts. Personally, I like these phrases:
– “I love the teachings of Jesus. I like his insights, and they bring enlightenment to my life.”
– “I am grateful for the examples and friendships of my fellow members. I love associating with people who are trying hard to do their best, to love one another and their families, and to be true to their ideals.”
Sometimes I think its the English languages fault! I mean we have these two words “believe” and “know” and it seems most of us, if not all, fall somewhere in between. Wish we had a word that explained what it feels like to know and not know at the same time. Btw….I don’t bare my testimony anymore. I think it would take a mack truck and perhaps a million dollar bonus prize to get me up on that stage. For now, my testimony will have to be born in less obvious ways. For some reason, I don’t have trouble with weaving my testimony into my lessons. yeah…..I am a mess.
Quote:I think people can only know their own experiences.
I agree – which is why I am comfortable with the following statements, among others:
“I know that God lives and loves me.”
“I know that our situations and circumstances are known to and understood by God.”
“I know that there is great joy and peace that comes from striving to acquire the characteristics of godliness found in our scriptures.”
“I know we are blessed when we serve others – especially when we do so with no expectation of reward other than what comes into our hearts.”
There are lots of things I “believe” – but there also are lots of things that my own, personal experiences have taught me in ways that are undeniable to me. I’m fine saying I “know” these things – especially since I agree we “know” (for ourselves) those things we experience and internalize.
Finally, since I reserve the right to define terms according to what makes sense for me, I have NO problem with others doing the same – even when how they define things differs from how I define them. Again, if I want that consideration from others, I really should be willing to grant them the same consideration. If someone feels comfortable saying they “know” certain things (almost always based on their own experiences), who am I to say they are wrong? I don’t want to carry the burden of judging others that way, so I don’t.
Of course, that means I and someone else can “know” opposite things – but that’s ok. Chances are, neither of us is 100% correct – so what does it hurt me to be charitable in this way? Nothing.
Hawk, I really appreciate those kinds of statements also. Ray, I am beginning to internalize and understand what you’re saying here — and it helps me understand why church members like to express things the way they do.
I’m comfortable sharing the many aspects of my testimony of Jesus Christ, the impact of the Holy Ghost in my life, and in any way it manifests itself, my acknowledging God for his goodness, greatness, and mercy…and in giving HIM the glory. Wow, it was really great to read everyone’s affirmations of God, love and goodness. I have recently stopped attending church, but I still frequent this site because it helps me feel spiritually connected to the church I loved so much; maybe someday I’ll really reach stage 5 and decide I can go back, but for now, I’m doing my own thing. Anyway, I realized that while right now I can’t actually testify of much. I no longer believe in Christ as Savior like I used to (though I wholeheartedly believe in the goodness of his teachings as my own moral code), nor of any specific church doctrines I used to testify of, particularly as a missionary. But what this topic made me realize is that for years, even when I was on a mission and was expected to bear my testimony every month in sacrament meeting, the bulk of my testimony was ALWAYS, “I know that God lives and loves each and every one of us.” It wasn’t that I didn’t believe the other stuff at the time (and I would make references to the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, etc), it was just that God’s love is the only thing that was so very important to me. For that matter, my prayer to God to ask him to help me and tell me he loved me (back when I was about 15 and going through a hard time) was one of the only times I’ve ever received what I still consider an answer to prayer. Now I’ve changed what I feel about religion, Christ, and the LDS church, but I found that despite everything I feel I don’t believe anymore, I still can say “I believe that God exists and loves each one of us individually.”
A lot of you mentioned that you don’t feel comfortable enough to bear your testimony in church. It sure can be a touchy subject–I have a friend who recently decided to leave the church. A month or so before she did, she decided to bear her testimony in Relief Society, but could only muster up saying that she believed in God and believed there was goodness, and she was hopeful she’d be able to work out the rest, or something along those lines. She meant it to be an uplifting experience for her, but instead, someone told the Bishop who called in her and her husband to talk about her “issues.”
Another old one. I don’t know how everyone else feels about F&T Sunday but I have a tendency to cringe in anticipation. I like Brian Johnston’s comments here.
Brian Johnston wrote:
I’ve gotten up and born a testimony a few times over the past year. I almost never use the words “I know” unless I also include at least a brief set of comments to clarify how I came to that conclusion. Funny enough, I had this view for most of my adult life. My first mission president (who was a crazy person) actually gave great advice and training on this subject. He taught us NOT to use a lot of “fluff” when bearing our testimonies as missionaries. He said it diluted the power of our words.“I know from the bottom of my heart, from the depths of my soul and with all the fiber of my being that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world.”
vs.
“I testify that Jesus Christ is the savior of the world.”
Anyway … I digress.
When I bear my testimony, I talk about God and Christ and knowing them through my personal experiences or by the power of the Spirit. I talk about how the Gospel is effective and has made me a better and more holy person, which I believe. I prefer to stick to making factual statements like I am actually “testifying” of something and explaining how and why religion affected my life. I rarely if ever use the word “true.” I just don’t need to, and it is such a vague word anyways.
I don’t get up to give an update to the world on all the problems I experienced in the past month since I last updated everyone
😈
If someone does talk about the problems they are facing, I want to know: how did they get through to the other side?
It is rare that I bare my testimony. Maybe at the end of a sacrament talk. Asked to give a talk is rare too.
I’m not comfortable voicing any kind of testimony during fast and testimony meeting, in fact I’ve purposely skipped F&T meetings the last several years (I do attend church, just not F&T Sundays or 2nd hour). I can’t remember the last time I bore testimony in a F&T meeting. Probably somewhere between 15-20 years ago.
The last time I was assigned a talk I had a work conflict on the Sunday I was supposed to give the talk and then I was sick on the Sunday when the talk was rescheduled. I explained that I wasn’t dodging, that I was free to give a talk on short notice whenever they needed because I already had the talk prepared. I never got to give that talk. No one has tried assigning me a talk ever since. That was probably five years ago.
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