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Hey all! I’ve been trying so hard to keep my spirits up lately, I really have. Long story short DH and I just had a conversation regarding Church. Earlier he brought up that he had been doing some reading over on lds.org and wanted to share that “Spouses should not discuss/argue over doctrine” .. Something to that effect. Although I agree that couples shouldn’t get in screaming matches I just had to say .. I didn’t completely agree. We should be able to discuss and talk like adults about doctrine all day if we feel we must but somewhere down the line disagreements will come. So avoid doctrine “Talk” altogether for the sake of not disagreeing? NO way! We should be able to discuss everything, EVERYTHING our heart questions and desires with our spouses. (We don’t discuss doctrine hardly ever btw BUT the gay issue comes up quite a bit) I have no idea how the recent “Conversation” started but it ended in “You are doing your own will, not God’s” (DH to me). I apparently have never “Tried”, definition of try being : Church every Sunday, Monthly Temple attendence, FHE, Family prayer day and night, daily scripture reading, Keeping all temple covenants, personal prayer. So I, (according to DH) do not know if I am doing God’s will or not.
I couldn’t help but go read what he has been reading today for some type of explanation.
Some advice he read was decent. Some advice was loving. Most advice I agreed with. However most advice ended with quotes like these:
“There is no magic formula that will instantly free you from current marital conflict. The only solution is living the gospel. Your own humility and obedience must be the starting point for seeing possible solutions.”
“The foundation of a righteous home is the parents’ righteousness.”
“If we desire others, especially our children, to be obedient to gospel principles, we must first look to our own integrity and obedience. When we live by correct principles, our children will be more likely to follow our example.”
“We and our children have many voices calling us away from gospel principles and the counsel of the Brethren.”
“If one spouse is striving honestly to live a gospel-centered life, which includes unconditional love and proper respect for agency, the marriage may not fail. However, if both honor their gospel commitments, the marriage can certainly become a celestial marriage.”
“Obedience to the commandments helps us achieve oneness in marriage.”
I just don’t fit in with this. I can see why he came at me the way he did today, after reading all of the articles. I’m not sure if these few quotes struck out at him also or if it’s just me. I can’t compete with this and I’m not sure if I even want to be this person. This is what is wanted. This is what people strive for. This is why I run circles in my head constantly. This is what scares me and I can’t say I like it. So why in the world should I try? Someone who is as anti-obedience as me .. How do you cope with the fact that just maybe your spouse deserves someone who strives to “live the gospel” and be obedient? .. Do you ever feel like you would be doing your spouse a favor by making them more “One” with somone who agrees with this thinking than with yourself? He is hurt and I am hurt. I just don’t know if I see a point in pushing this hurt out much longer. Sorry I’m a little sad right now.
BTW the quotes can be found under Home and Family/Marriage at lds.org just fyi
Edited to add that I just read swims comment on the last page of “Worst kind of Mormon..is me” and it pretty much explains quite a bit with the whole codependent thing! … DH actually told me to be me, to stop being sad and just do what I think I need to do …. THEN he dropped the “I personally think you are going against God’s Will” bomb ruins my chance of hope .. And basically says I’m evil .. So why on earth be me around him? Ahhh life.
LaLa!! Good to hear from you!! Well, I mean, it stinks that these are the conditions but… like you said, AAHH life! LaLaLove wrote:DH actually told me to be me, to stop being sad and just do what I think I need to do …. THEN he dropped the “I personally think you are going against God’s Will” bomb ruins my chance of hope
This is the one that struck me, LaLa. You can’t control what your DH thinks. Even if you do all that stuff, what’s the point? He knows you feel differently, so he probably will have a hard time accepting your “commitment” as real. Then you get bitter. He gets pissed. You get resentful. Again, what’s the point? Trying to get him to change his thinking is a losing battle. And, it’s not your battle. That’s his.
Your battle is to concentrate on yourself. To not be concerned with the storm that rages. Let it rage. Why step into that storm? You choose to so you can choose not to.
Ray posted a fabulous article about a wife who needed to step away (emotionally) from a “raging” husband. It’s an amazing story. Here’s the link to the thread that Ray started, which is great as well:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=721 And a link to the article that is in the thread:
LaLa if it is possible, and it will be hard, you need to step back from this and realize that your Stage 3 husband is absorbing Stage 3 advice then giving that to you and then trying to have you respond to that. I think and I hope that what your are experiencing from him (from his point of view) is a very brave attempt to help you and help the marriage ( of course I don’t know this, he might have been very brusque and angry when he was talking to you, more self righteous than loving but I am hoping). Assuming the best he is getting advice from a source that he trusts and perhaps your best defense is to send him back to something like this from the same source: Quote:“Once you determine that a high priority in your life is to see that your wife and your children are happy, then you will do all in your power to do so. I am not just speaking of satisfying material desires, but of filling other vital needs such as appreciation, compliments, comforting, encouraging, listening, and giving love and affection.” (In Conference Report, Apr. 1981, p. 47; or Ensign, May 1981, p. 34.) Ezra Taft Benson
First recognize that this is a quote from the most Stage 3 prophet we have had in recent Church history but it is Christ like advice and it is the key. It is harder when the Stage 3 approach comes from a person that you love but if you can recognize his worry and respond to it with “appreciation, compliments, comforting, encouraging, listening etc.” then it will help to assure him that your spritual development and struggles don’t have to automatically lead to marriage difficulties.
As Swim said in essence, the only person you have control over is you but in my experience there is not much use in sharing this spiritual quest/journey/agony with your spouse unless they are actively on it too, it just upsets them and makes them feel bewildered.
However like you I expect I do make an exception for the gay issue, both with my wife and within any forum where I run into the intolerance. Essentially I just keep up a variety of, “This is not how Christ would act in this situation.” this gets me into enough trouble as it is but though the issue may take a long time the Church has to move to a move caring, loving approach.
swimordie wrote:Your battle is to concentrate on yourself. To not be concerned with the storm that rages. Let it rage. Why step into that storm? You choose to so you can choose not to.
Ray posted a fabulous article about a wife who needed to step away (emotionally) from a “raging” husband. It’s an amazing story. Here’s the link to the thread that Ray started, which is great as well:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=721 And a link to the article that is in the thread:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/fashion/02love.html?_r=2
Thanks! I am trying to concentrate on myself. It really is very difficult to not explain myself to DH. I like to discuss things, I like to talk. You are right that I can choose not to step in the storm and I will try harded not to do so. Sometimes I want to be immature about it. In regards to black and white thinking, DH has recommended that I leave Church and anything “Churchlike” and move on completely. I’ve felt lately that maybe I should just drop it all, everything. Not b/c I want to, but because I want DH to see that it makes no sense and really it is just that reinforced “All or Nothing” dogma playing in his ear over and over. Just as I think going in 100% makes no sense, for the simple fact of it possibly(99%) making me go insane. That would be the immature thing to do IMO and I’m honestly begining to think that I should give this “All or Nothing” thing a shot. The only thing is I think I will try “Nothing” first. I will see how I like it and at the same time maybe convice DH that throwing the baby out with the bath water isn’t the only “Right” answer. I desperately need a brake anyway! I think I will start this experimenting with other truths-just reading other spiritual books, things like that and leave the “I can be Mormon if I want DARN it! Even if I don’t believe I few core principles” attitude at rest for know. Anyway I know it is there in my mind and in DH, it isn’t far away! Now that I think about it maybe it will be more mature of me to start “Finding” some type of solution that includes giving Mormonism a rest for the time being, even though I already know I like and respect many aspects of it AND don’t mind embracing the good in it – I just don’t think in black/white when it comes to sprituality anymore. If that makes sense. So am I just kidding myself or does this sound resonable?Bill Atkinson wrote:LaLa if it is possible, and it will be hard, you need to step back from this and realize that your Stage 3 husband is absorbing Stage 3 advice then giving that to you and then trying to have you respond to that. I think and I hope that what your are experiencing from him (from his point of view) is a very brave attempt to help you and help the marriage ( of course I don’t know this, he might have been very brusque and angry when he was talking to you, more self righteous than loving but I am hoping). Assuming the best he is getting advice from a source that he trusts and perhaps your best defense is to send him back to something like this from the same source:
However like you I expect I do make an exception for the gay issue, both with my wife and within any forum where I run into the intolerance. Essentially I just keep up a variety of, “This is not how Christ would act in this situation.” this gets me into enough trouble as it is but though the issue may take a long time the Church has to move to a move caring, loving approach.
Bill I definately realized that last night! It took everything for me not to say “You know how all or nothing you are about things .. really makes your “Advice” just seem ridiculous AND you are NOT helping me, In fact you are making things worse.” Good thing I didn’t because even if he was being a little hostile, I don’t need to be that way too. It was totally Stage three through and through.Yes the “Gay Issue” is tough. It is on the TV, it is on the radio and it is In Church. I’ve had views on the issue for quite some time and they just so happen to not jive with the Churches stance. In fact back last year when Bishop got up and said “The Church is against gay marriage” “Here are these forms .. We urge you all to vote this year if you have not done so yet” “Voting is very important” “You all know how the Church views gay marriage OF COURSE you have free agency, remember” .. I knew something in me started boiling. All in sacrament meeting .. Before the 08′ election. I am VERY VERY comfortable with my views on the situation and I am so grateful for being able to take responsibility with my thoughts and be able to say “This is right and God is happy with me.”
LaLaLove wrote:I just don’t think in black/white when it comes to sprituality anymore. If that makes sense. So am I just kidding myself or does this sound resonable?
It CAN make sense. I see these kinds of issues as really two parts: one, are you actively seeking emotional health by detaching from those codependent relationships (marital, church, parents, etc.) and two, are you being honest with yourself in your personal spiritual journey.
On the first, there’s alot of ways to recover from codependency. But it takes time and work. Reading, thinking, talking, sharing, creating boundaries, taking care of oneself, staying present. I’ve said it a thousand times but the book “Codependent No More” is the best, at least it was for me.
On the second, there’s a temptation to accept carte blanche ideas from sources that we felt were trustworthy or that we had experienced as beneficial. But, all things need to be on the table. Nothing can be “sacred”, meaning nothing is off-limits to explore more deeply. If we’re not open to any and all possibilities and, as a consequence, not willing to explore mentally and spiritually the whole range of ideology, theology, cosmology, etc., we may be setting ourselves up for further pain or setting traps for our future selves that will derail our progression.
And, that’s where black/white thinking is the most dangerous. It’s black until it’s not, then it’s white. But these are just mental games that we’re playing with our spirituality and, sometimes, our emotional health. Embracing the gray, being okay with not being certain, understanding that the point of life is not to be right but, rather, to learn. If you know with certainty that you are right, what can you possibly learn? Is the journey of mortality really just to prove how right we are?
If you can’t be honest with yourself, that you really don’t know everything, that you’re okay with not being sure, and that it doesn’t matter, and I mean really doesn’t matter, what others think of you, the system of codependency will kick in and the sense of needing to be right, needing to be validated, needing to be accepted, needing to be loved on your terms will take over your mind leaving no space for personal introspection and inspiration.
LaLaLove wrote:“This is right and God is happy with me.”
This is the key. We must stay in this place with all aspects of our existence.
Wow…excellent advice so far! I echo what has been said, and will add just a little. For me, trying to live a life others wanted me to led to a drug addiction. I popped pills to escape the conflict of living two divergent lives. I came to learn that
I HAD TO LIVE AUTHENTICALLY, and it wasn’t easy to get past the need to please others…but once I did, the craving for the drugs stopped. Codependency is that powerful, and that destructive. Please read the books Swim recommended. It will hurt in your gut for a while, because it will conflict with much of what you’ve been taught (“but this is what people do when they love each other…”), but if you incorporate it, your life will be much better. I guarantee it (sheesh, I sound like a salesman! 
I think a healthy, loving way to talk to DH about it is, “Honey, I am questioning a few things about my spiritual path, and it has nothing to do with you. I love you, and it would help me if you would give me space to explore my spirituality…in my way. I respect your commitment for what YOU believe, and will not get in the way of your journey either.”
I suspect he may not take it so well…most stage three-ers don’t. But simply saying it will give YOU confidence that YOU need, and will be a step towards you own empowerment. “Arguing,” if that is his approach, naturally triggers defensiveness. You know you’re progressing when you can let HIM get mad without you needing to argue back. Certain phrases like “I’m sorry this makes you angry, but I need to do this…,” and “I can understand this is how you view what God says, but I feel differently about it — I’m not saying you’re wrong, it’s just that I need to learn for myself…” are the kinds of statements that allow loving dialogue.
Good luck with it all!
I think I am going through something quite similar. I really like swimordie’s references to codependence, only rather than saying “detach” I choose to use the word “transcend.” The difference is subtle, but detachment, to me, involves a declaration of independence on a parallel playing field. Transcendence involves elevation to a more enlightened playing field, and involves compassionate assertiveness. There are a few things in your statement that I want to comment on.
LaLaLove wrote:We should be able to discuss everything, EVERYTHING our heart questions and desires with our spouses.
This is an ideal. This does not reflect reality.
LaLaLove wrote:I just don’t fit in with this.
Why not? Why not try turning his remarks on their head? I read through those quotes and there isn’t one I disagree with. I would likely have very different interpretations than a TBM individual, but it seems like great advice. In fact this:
Quote:If one spouse is striving honestly to live a gospel-centered life, which includes unconditional love and proper respect for agency, the marriage may not fail.
is possibly the most brilliant quote on marriage ever produced! You might gently remind your spouse that he has a role in “unconditional love and proper respect for agency.” Note there is nothing here about going to church, paying tithing, fulfilling a calling, etc. etc. Just because both you and your spouse might have a similar notion of what this quote means in a Mormon context, doesn’t mean that is the only interpretation.Also, there is some interesting psychology going on in all of us. We are hard-wired to view ourselves through rose-colored lenses. We are very good at seeing biases, beams, and baloney in the eyes of our fellows, but very bad at seeing these in ourselves. We tend to view ourselves as “above average,” even if only sub-consciously, in just about everything. When I think about how this applies in my marriage, I am left feeling more inclined to listen intently to my spouse’s criticism of me. This is “hard doctrine” as it were, but it will go miles in helping any relationship. As has been said, turn inwardly, to focus on yourself, and then you will “see more clearly to cast the mote out of thy neighbor’s eye.” I don’t mean that in a “you’re a hypocrite” kind of way. I mean it in a “turn inward to discover things about yourself, and then you will have new lenses through which to see your spouse” kind of way.
Quote:Someone who is as anti-obedience as me
L3 – you are not the only one! I’m skeptical of the notion of obedience, too, but I find humility very appealing. If you are like me (you like humility, but find “obedience” very authoritative and anti-thinking), then maybe you can find your common ground here. When you husband says “obedience,” HEAR “humility” (even when that means he just said “humility and humility.”)
The other thing I find off-putting is the notion of “God’s will.” You are entitled to know God’s will for yourself, not just what others tell you it is. Bruce R. McConkie even says this (and we all know how dogmatic he could be). So, I’d focus on your willingness to learn things for yourself and to be humble, and that obedience to God’s will is something that you are entitled to learn directly through your own personal revelation because in some cases one size does NOT fit all. Find some things you can give on that will show your DH you want to be the best person you can be and that you are not hostile or unteachable, but that you have to find your own way.
I don’t know if any of that is helpful. Just remember that your DH has to come first (and you have to come first to him). I agree with Eu’s advice on this. Marriages fail because spouses attempt to control one another. The scripture that talks about marriage being “yoked together” and cautions against “unequal” yoking with “an unbeliever,” while useful on one level is often misinterpreted. Being unequally yoked requires compensating for the inequity. Problems only come in when one ox tries to force the other ox to do it the way that works best for them – control issues. You’re already in the yoke. What can you do to compensate? How can you help him understand better how to compensate? While a marriage of equally yoked believers may be easy to hold together, you only love the people you serve. Compensating is a form of service.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
The other thing I find off-putting is the notion of “God’s will.” You are entitled to know God’s will for yourself, not just what others tell you it is.Absolutely love this! Thanks, HG!
Thank you for all of the good advice. We have discussed it a little further and have decided to live in the moment! (What an idea!) If our religious differences bring us further apart and we aren’t able to both give and take/compromise..well we will take it on a day at a time and see where it takes us. Until then, whenever then is..if there even is one, I will work towards being myself no strings attached, for the most part. Thank you again and thank God for this board. Sounds wonderful, LaLa! It’s so hard to stay present, but if we all can, all of the what-if’s will take care of themselves for the best.
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