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Okay, Ineed help. I went to my daughters Young Women in Excellence meeting last night. Our First counselor in the Stake Presidency was the speaker. He was giving a great talk and I was totally enjoying it until he told the Young Women to listen to Elder Hollands talk from conference because it was the most powerful talk on the Book of Mormon that he has ever heard in his lifetime. I was fine with that. But then he said he wanted the Young Women to read the Book of Mormon and using the promise in Moroni to pray about whether the Book of Mormon is true and he promised if they did that, that they would get the answer that it is in fact true. Of course that bothered me because I have prayed and fasted and planned on an answer and I did not receive an answer. I am so tempted to talk to him in a very nice way and tell him he doesn’t have the right to promise things like that. What do you think??? I have a different take on this: I think that all Latterday Saints (including those working at the Neal Maxwell Institute, formerly FARMS) should just abandon all attempts to prove the B of M using DNA or archaeological evidence – that stuff will only create debate, argument and disagreement.
The next thing I would focus on is a “living testimony”. God is the “God of the Living” not the God of the dead. A “living testimony” is a faith that motivates one into positive action. Reading the B of M is great, but then, one must decide how one is going to put your faith into action. The testimony will come as you live the gospel. I
don’t think it is enough just to ask if something is true, I think one has to act.
I also think that our young people should be admonished not to place all of their faith in just one book. One should also read the New Testament, for example. I have found testimonies of Christ in some of the most amazing places. I cannot honestly say that the testimonies in the Book of Mormon are more valuable than the testimonies given by the “Lost Boys” of Sudan who claim that Christ has saved them. Stories like this prove that one can find Christ wherever he is, and Christ will always find him.
Honestly, I think that discussion would probably not go in the direction that you hope. I could be wrong, but often leaders start feeling pressured in situations like that, and if he does the pressure might come out in words that could feel even more hurtful to you. Obviously he feels he canpromise those types of things, and according to his understanding he may feel the need to defend it by implying that not receiving an answer in the way you expect could be due to unworthiness, lacking intent, impatience, or something else equally as hurtful. Perhaps not, hopefully not, just be aware of the potential. We will not always agree with everything that is preached in church, sadly that is the reality. We just have to become really good at making lemonade!!
Peaceandjoy wrote:I am so tempted to talk to him in a very nice way and tell him he doesn’t have the right to promise things like that. What do you think???
Oooooh …. *cringes a little*
We all know that impulse and have felt it. Maybe it was about something else, but the feeling is the same.
I don’t think that would really be productive for you or him. I can’t imagine that conversation going anywhere good. If it was something other than a foundational claim of the Church, sure maybe. Had he said something unkind about someone (or some group), sure. What if he said something that was factually untrue? …. maybe it might go over well if done in a very loving way.
Here is the same story set in a different context. Perhaps it will seem different that way. I find this type of analysis helpful:
I had a discussion with a very nice and sincere Muslim a couple of months ago. He promised that if I read the Qur’an, tried to live the principles in it, and prayed about it, that God would make it known to me in personal revelation that it is true. It was fascinating to hear his words so closely mirror what I had heard all my life in the LDS Church. Did he have any right to make that claim? Sure. *shrug* It’s religion we’re talking about. [true story]
The choice is all in how we process input from the world. I could have been offended by my experience. I decided that I would feel the love and sincere compassion he was trying to express to me, and his excitement about the foundational claims of his religion. He cared enough to share that with me. I listened to him and thanked him. It was an uplifting experience.
As above, so below. As within, so is it without.
I agree with what’s been said here. Best to bite your tongue in this situation I’m afraid. Your SP is acting in perfect harmony with the church on more than simply a cultural level. Moroni’s promise is fundamental to almost every other piece of the Gospel. The model of pray -> get spiritual confirmation -> church and BoM is true has been used for decades by our missionaries. MWallace57 brings up a good point. The modern church is concerned with the literal reality of the truth claims from Joseph and the BoM. Hence they are concerned, at some level, with apologetics. I think Holland’s talk illustrates that the most important witness comes from within, from the HG. But that doesn’t stop the church from engaging in research to try and “prove” it – so to speak. The “living testimony” is the important one to have in Mormonism. The problem however, then becomes that some people realize that they have this same “living testimony” experience when they are exposed to other material that isn’t church related, isn’t religious, and may in fact be fiction. Now there’s a conundrum in their mind.
I would encourage your daughter to take the challenge as instructed by the SP. If she gets the designed answer then talk to her about what that answer might mean – being very gentle, and taking a faithful perspective. If she does not get the designed answer, as you have not, then you can discuss that in the context of the church and what it means. Either way it seems to me you have a great opportunity for a teaching moment here.
IMO I think the guy is already pretty comfortable with what he thinks is “True” and with the fact that if everyone else does what he says in the “Right” way, that they will, in fact, be just as “Sure” as him. IOW I kind of think talking with this person is a waste of time. Your daughter, however, would be a great person to talk to 
:Thanks everyone, You’re right it would be worthless to talk to him. He is only doing what he thinks is right and he is a very good man. I certainly never want to make anyone uncomfortable. My family is very active, so I probably won’t talk to my daughter until she does read the BofM and then ask her what her feelings are. I am trying so hard to just go with the flow of the church but so many times my stomach churns and I get tired of acting like I’m fine with everything. Ah well, life goes on.
I do think there’s wisdom in letting people have their own personal experiences, especially our kids. If SP hadn’t said that, she will have heard it a thousand times elsewhere, including in the BOM itself. It’s not like SP owns that approach. What could be more Mormon? But consider this approach as an end-to-end. You can evaluate each step as you will:
person studies religion (e.g. BOM) > person seeks personal revelation and enlightenment through prayer > person interprets outcome of this activity
So far, so good. Right? It’s only after this point that you’ve got some mixed feelings.
person interprets answer > person makes inferences about the broader organization based on that interpretation > person makes personal choices about life direction and actions based on those inferences.
It’s that second series that could go a million different ways and where you are unsettled. I would still say there’s nothing wrong with the first series. Human beings seeking enlightenment – what could be better? It’s only what people choose to do with their interpretations and inferences that gets a little mixed up at times. But that stuff is totally personal and individual. You could feel you had a “true” answer but draw different inferences about other things or decide it’s not something you want to pursue for a variety of reasons. What we infer and what we do is what reveals our true character, IMO, for better or worse.
Peaceandjoy, I wrote about something similar last month. Here is the link: “Supporting Leaders While Disagreeing with What They Teach” (
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=923 Ray, I really do understand what you are saying. I guess I worry about those young people who listen to him and decide ok I will read the BofM and then I will pray and I will get an answer and then they don’t. Like me they might fake it for awhile and get frustrated. I don’t know I just wish we could be more honest in the church with our feelings but that isn’t realistic is it? You have to keep it all inside and make sure you don’t hurt anyone else’s testimony. I know that what you are saying is right, it just takes me awhile to settle down and realize that. Thanks for listening. My husband who has been so supportive decided he didn’t want to hear any criticism of the church anymore which I totally understand. That is why it is so nice to be able to say whatever I need to here. You help put things into perspective. Thanks again.
I think that there is a way to talk to him and have it not go badly. But I’m obviously in the minority. If you feel like you need to, I think it would be okay to tell him about your own experience and that his adamant promise failed for you. You could also state your concern for the effect of the promise on youth that might have experiences like you. You’d probably want to say something about why you stay in church also. There could be some fallout, but I think you should do what you want. My guess is that he’ll dismiss what you said and not make any changes as a result. However, I think it will likely make him pause and think for a moment. It all depends on you and how much you feel you need to say something.
Being a mom too, I would encourage you to use this as an opportunity to teach your daughter in the way you would like to raise her. Explain to her that we all have our own spiritual journey and that people feel spiritual truth in different ways. I really liked the part in the “why do people leave the LDS church” podcast where it was asked do we have an obligation to be part of the solution? I am really hoping we can teach our children that although some people in the church have the best of intentions, what they are saying is their belief. I think we can do this in a loving, non threatening way so that our children might not feel they have to believe in the black and white mentality of so many members. I hate the idea of giving children the impression that they will feel a certain way. Leading them to believe there is something wrong with them if they don’t. I do not know what your feelings are, or your daughters but maybe you can encourage her that she can trust in Christ and His timing? Just some unorganized thoughts. Sorry if I offended anyone. I am new here and still get surprised by some people’s upbringings. Thanks Nightwalden and Phase III and everyone for your support. I like the idea of talking to my daughter and explain that we each have different spiritual journeys. I really think that I could even talk to the 1st counselor in the stake presidency in a nice way and not offend him. But I haven’t decided about that yet. It is great to have your ideas. It makes it so much easier to go thru this without being alone. Peaceandjoy, I appreciate your struggle, and your positive attitude. I love your username as well! All we can really do here is share our personal experiences, so I’m going to share a little about how my views have evolved on this topic of “answers” to prayers about the BoM. My experience through much of my life has probably been quite similar to yours. I read the BoM, I prayed about it, I wondered if I could get a “real” answer – something that shook my soul and said “Yes! It is! (true, divine, even historical)” but my “answers” were all so very subtle. Nothing more than an absence of a bad feeling about it you might say.
More recently I have realized that I have held many unrealistic expectations of the church. I expected all inspired words (meaning words spoken by the influence of the spirit) from all church leaders to align and agree PERFECTLY with each other, effectively removing the human component. Today I see this expectation as a part of “infallibility” and does not allow for the reality of mortal men operating in the best way that they can. Everyone will interpret spiritual things in their own way, this is what is meant by “seeing through a glass darkly” that Ray loves to talk about.
I try not to worry about why I gained these unrealistic expectations in the first place, I’m just glad I can shift them to more realistic expectations as I move forward.
Applying this to receiving an answer about the BoM, I also realized my expectations in this regard were too high. Personally, I’m not a very emotional person. It takes a lot to kick my emotions into action. I’m just not going to get a strong response to this type of situation. Yes, I do believe spiritual experiences can be tied to emotional responses. That is my personal opinion and I don’t think its at odds with the doctrine of the church. So for me, I came to realize that my answers come directly with my reading of the text. I read something, I find goodness in it, I feel good about the message it teaches; that feeling in that moment is my answer. To me it can be that simple. To me that simple is beautiful. Yes, these answers confirm spiritual truth and not historical. Personally I just put the historical question on the shelf and try not to worry about it for now (this becomes the topic of another thread:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=642 That’s my current personal approach anyway, for what it’s worth.
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