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So last night I decided to go to a bar. It was a high class bar, and I thought I was going to enjoy the atmosphere. I’ve actually been to many bars and high class social situation as a TBM. But this time I felt different. This time I wanted to take a drink and start to shed myself of beliefs that I don’t regard as commandments. I do like the idea of the WOW but not as a list of can and cannot. For instance, don’t drink coffee but drink a couple energy drinks. One is on the temple recommend list, and one is not. Both have similar impact. But this was my previous logic on things. I also think that rules can take over the greater meaning of a principle. Okay back to the story… I went to the bar and suddenly my conscience radar turned on. I felt like I was in a dark place of wickedness. I felt so uncomfortable, yet I have been in places like that in the past. The difference was I wanted to take a drink, but I couldn’t. I felt my whole body shake and left the place fairly quickly without a sip. But yet I have no idea why I would feel this way. There was no logic in it at all. Just fear that I somehow would lose a sense of myself. I’m still trying to understand why I felt this way. I didn’t feel uplifted after I left. As a TBM I would grab the BOM quick and read, thanking God for saving my salvation from sin. Now I just feel like I’m in a uncomfortable place where I don’t agree but follow, with my body literally shaking from the experience.
Two possibilities come to mind: 1. Sure. It could be a spiritual experience you had. Regardless of the Mormon WofW, it is still quite possible that God is telling
you(as an individual) through the Spirit that you should not have been there in that place to drink. Just because we shed baggage and beliefs, go through disillusionment and disaffection, and experience a crisis of faith, that doesn’t mean we must jettison our practice of the WofW. Regardless of the history and development, drinking alcohol does in fact lead a lot of people in to trouble. I don’t think any rational person denies that. Maybe you would have gotten yourself into trouble, and God was telling you that. Do you see how this is a personal thing now even if it no longer has universal and absolute application to the rest of the world? 2. It could also have been a deep psychological reaction to the situation. You were in the process of going against profound and deeply held beliefs that you have had for decades. Our rational mind can be really clever and think one thing … but our subconscious is FAR more powerful in a lot of ways. Remember, our unconscious mind is very sophisticated and handles vast amounts of information and processes in our bodies. Recalling elements from your introduction about your upbringing, you probably have powerful and deep-rooted angst about walking into a bar and drinking. It is the essence of “evil” and darkness in Mormon culture. We can consciously recognize that. It isn’t so easy to deprogram the other 95% of our mind.
It could be one or both of these. It could be something else too, but those came to mind. Those things being the case, your body or your soul were telling you something. As far as it sounds, that message was “not right now.” Do you listen to or ignore that? Well of course the decision is all yours. I don’t personally think God cares all that much about what we eat and drink. I think it matters very much still what the meaning and consequences are. I still believe that God cares about what we are experiencing. Getting drunk and doing something else that is hurtful or stupid, or to delay and avoid dealing with emotional issues (self-medicating) is still morally wrong in my mind, wrong in the sense that we are creating suffering and hurtful consequences.
I don’t really know you except the few posts you have made in our community. I’m going to throw this out there though as an observation. You seem
veryagitated and emotional right now. We all still go through phases of that, so it’s not a big deal. I understand completely. I don’t know if now is the right time for you to explore drinking alcohol. I’m just saying that as an observation. You come across as not being at peace very much with your situation. I could be wrong. Perhaps your body, mind and spirit were telling you that too. Alcohol isn’t going anywhere
Valoel wrote:Maybe you would have gotten yourself into trouble, and God was telling you that. Do you see how this is a personal thing now even if it no longer has universal and absolute application to the rest of the world?
Yes, I see that.
Quote:2. It could also have been a deep psychological reaction to the situation. You were in the process of going against profound and deeply held beliefs that you have had for decades. Our rational mind can be really clever and think one thing … but our subconscious is FAR more powerful in a lot of ways. Remember, our unconscious mind is very sophisticated and handles vast amounts of information and processes in our bodies. Recalling elements from your introduction about your upbringing, you probably have powerful and deep-rooted angst about walking into a bar and drinking. It is the essence of “evil” and darkness in Mormon culture. We can consciously recognize that. It isn’t so easy to deprogram the other 95% of our mind.
I definitely feel it’s a psychological reaction. But either way the subconscious was telling me, “not now.” I’ve been in bars before and other such locations. I normally don’t feel the way I did. There is something else happening here. My reaction really surprised me.
Quote:Getting drunk and doing something else that is hurtful or stupid, or to delay and avoid dealing with emotional issues (self-medicating) is still morally wrong in my mind, wrong in the sense that we are creating suffering and hurtful consequences.
I don’t believe in getting drunk.
Quote:I don’t really know you except the few posts you have made in our community. I’m going to throw this out there though as an observation. You seem
veryagitated and emotional right now. We all still go through phases of that, so it’s not a big deal. I understand completely. I don’t know if now is the right time for you to explore drinking alcohol. I’m just saying that as an observation. You come across as not being at peace very much with your situation. I could be wrong. Perhaps your body, mind and spirit were telling you that too. No kidding! When I was a TBM I wasn’t agitated like I am now. I was in a comfortable spot, though I wasn’t happy. I’ve decided that I need to give myself time to process information. I think that it makes no sense to go against my feelings. I was really surprised at how I felt. I mean, everything was fine until I entered the bar. I also think it was more then just drinking alcohol. The idea that I’m not who I used to be and that I am changing at a fast pace impacted me. Just a little over a month ago I was a TBM and now I’m questioning everything. (30 + years of TBM versus 1 month of not believing.) Instead of worrying about drinking or not I need to get my head on my shoulders. I don’t plan on doing anything major until I have a more solid base in what I want and believe.
What’s hard is the continual change in information I’m learning on a daily basis. Right when I think I have a solid belief or lack there of regarding our church and God in general, I read something new that changes my opinion again. I think that learning to treat religion as a study like any other subject is a key. And if I do something that goes against the TBM commandments, perhaps I can live with it knowing that I am not perfect and my beliefs are allowed to change. It’s a much different thing so approach things this way. I think someone mentioned in another post that the Liahona is much more what we are experiencing at 3+ then the TBM iron rod. They are just feelings and thoughts in my head. I was one of those emotional/spiritual thinkers as a TBM. If I felt an emotion and thought it was the spirit I believed it came from God. Now I believe it’s much more of a chemical reaction instead of God. I believe many TBM are very emotionally driven in life. It makes it easier to control this type of person in a church of rules. If everyone responded based on logic and less on feelings and emotions the church would be much smaller.
I’m also in the middle of a major move. A lot is changing in my world right now. So I’m going to sit back and let myself process what is happening. I have felt very agitated regarding the church. I do find that this site has a more constructive/less anger based approach to things. I’ve also been on NOM, and though I like the site for what it is, the people there don’t focus on getting past stages of faith (4 usually) as they do just venting and expressing frustration, IMH. The combination seems to work for me. The quality of people and advice here is very good.
Eventually I will find more peace in all of this. No need to rush, tomorrow is another day. **I refuse the right to change my opinion any time** I guess my feelings are still too close to the surface. I’ll try to ease back and enjoy the ride.
@godlives: I went through the exact same things as you. Except for me it was that first cup of coffee at work. It was like I was sacrificing a child. It was those deep-seated beliefs that run through every part of my existence. It’s quite an experience.
Having gone through all of this in the last year, I would say that the absolute biggest most important thing is to stay honest. Be open and honest with anyone and everyone. But, most importantly, be honest with yourself. I get the sense that you may have felt repulsed by your experience in the bar because for the first time you contemplated giving yourself permission to drink. Which you had never done before and that’s why it felt so different this time. Also, upon taking a drink, your conscious or unconscious mind would have been racing with “who do I have to tell”, “am I going to have to go to the bishop”, “what if my mother-in-law finds out”, etc., etc.
This is all a part of the emotional health component. Being free from the self-imposed gaze of the other. Meaning, we care way too much what others think about us.
It’s your journey. Go slow. Be deliberate. Be honest. If any part of your journey includes hiding, lying, minimizing, or manipulation, then it’s important to stop and re-discover where you are in your emotional health. Our journey is only worthwhile if we are getting what was intended: growth, progress, joy, experience. And, I’ve said it elsewhere, but our emotional health is key to the whole process.
Idk if this means anything. DH is severly TBM(Was, Maybe?) when it comes to alcohol, for good reason I think. He knows alcohol causes problems and sometimes it causes probelms to become much bigger problems. He was indoctrinated big time on all the negitive aspects of it from a very young age. I have been a member for close to five years. I understand the WOW. I respect the WOW. I really think the world would be better if everyone followed the WOW. The spirit of it is flat out wrong, I think nowadays..Or at least that is what I have persoanlly seen in the last five years. If people faithfully follow it as a commandment and “Know” they need to, more props to them. On the flip side I just don’t see it as a commandment..and I believe in all things moderation. Personally the “Spirit” of it, I think is a control factor, nothing more .. just a way to seperate “Good apples” from “Bad apples”. Where I’m going with this …. DH took his first drink on a recent vacation we had, to “Prove” that he didn’t think alcohol was “Evil” BUT to prove that it is a choice he has made in his life not to drink alcohol. He bought me A beer the other night (Still not sure why he does this) and I got really really ill just drinking it in front of him – I get really ill and creeped out when he takes a few sips to. I know darn well in the back of my mind that this is some sort of reverse psychology stuff going on …. IOW he is drinking to say “Hey look at me I’m sacrificing for you …. ” “Now LaLaLove
At least that is what my mind tells me it is … The whole situation creeps me out. Alcohol doesn’t … But putting it together with my DH and myself does. Idk if I am brainwashed by DH or WOW commandments ringing in my ear .. or if I’m prisoned by my own deep thinking on the whole silly situation. So if it helps … I feel funny drinking with DH …. To the point of wanting to run out of the house and leave the situation and not drink at all! Even though I enjoy it! Even though at this time I drink respectfully and in moderation. Even though I KNOW there is nothing, nothing wrong with alcohol-as long as you respect it for the serious poison it can be and act accordingly! …. All the while for years all I have wanted was for DH to lighten up and have a drink …. .
Very interesting. My experience with breaking the WoW has been quite different from all of these. DW was disaffected first and pulled me into my disaffection, initially, so she was not worried about WoW and was encouraging of me to break it once she learned I was disaffected. I held off for a while as I was quite nervous about it as well. I kept telling myself, “I don’t have to make any decisions today.” Then as I read more church history, I got really angry, and decided I would break the WoW for spite. I went right home, grabbed DWs cup of coffee, and drank some. It actually tasted quite nasty, but I had a second taste just to make sure I was breaking the WoW good. It felt good to let out some of my anger over it.
We went to a tavern a couple of days later and ordered beers. I was nervous at first, but after drinking it and getting over the nervousness, I felt the “spirit.” It was quite odd. That was one point where I decided the feelings I had associated with the Spirit could not be the spirit.
Then I had a cup of coffee at work and it was a great experience. I hung out in the break room with some co-workers chatting over a cup of coffee and I felt a lot of comraderie with my coworkers.
Don’t rush yourself. You don’t have to make any decisions today. You’ll know when it is right.
I have come to a point I can’t over-analyze things like this too much anymore. Was it the spirit to tell you to get out of there? Was it your psychie? I don’t know, but tend to lean towards years of your brain telling you what you shouldn’t do doesn’t go away overnight with some new knowledge of an unrelated teaching. Missionaries going to a new country feel awkward when stepping off the plane into a new world…not because it is bad…but because it is not familiar. Missionaries also don’t convert people by bringing them to church and the moment the step into the chapel they must choose to be baptized or not (good thing…we’d get no converts that way!). A change of environment will feel uncomfortable or different…we just have to know if that is really what we want or if we just feel wrong about it and don’t want that environment. My belief is the bars and night clubs are not for me…it won’t feel right even if I wanted to…and I don’t want to and don’t want to make myself want to. I’m like you, godlives, the WoW just isn’t a big deal to me … its a rule that we must decide we’ll commit to, or not commit to, for personal reasons. There can be blessings (benefits) to committing to live it (health, personal pride to sticking to something, spirituality), and there can be benefits to not worrying about it (less guilt, less stress, and possibly more social benefits). It is what Valoel mentioned…its a personal choice.
I don’t think God is maintaining order in the universe by policing the bars and strip clubs. I think he knows we have a conscience and the Light of Christ…and those feelings should tell us something about ourselves and what we want to become.
I think obedience to rules is way over-rated…and I think obedience to your heart is way under-rated.Hang in there bud, and don’t go looking for answers by defying all the rules…look for answers inside the rules and what they stand for. God loves you either way. Just my view. Personally, I have been in both places on WoW, and I believe that it is in fact a great spiritual principle. I’ve done a lot of work with groups that do eastern meditation, and they typically avoid the same things as well in their quest for spiritual enlightenment. No good ever comes from drinking alcohol or coffee or tea or gorging yourself on red meat. By the same token, drinking alcohol or coffee don’t ruin most lives. Coffee is mostly neutral. Alcohol in moderation is neutral to many people, although as a working professional, I question its value as a social lubricant. Alcohol is also a terrible idea for anyone prone to depression. Coffee isn’t much better. Even so, it’s not necessary to drink alcohol or coffee or tea, and for those who wish to StayLDS, there’s no question that it’s going to make that harder if for no other reason than Mormons don’t drink alcohol or coffee or tea. If Mormons had a rule that you always wear pink socks on Tuesday, then not wearing pink socks on Tuesday would be a line in the sand. You’d feel naughty or different or defiant for wearing white socks on Tuesday. It’s a deliberate way to “not” stay LDS, to set yourself outside of it. And I say that as your internal experience, not because of what others will think of you. You are making an internal decision.
In answer to your question of whether it’s the spirit or psychology, IDK, but on some level I think “the spirit” = psychology FWIW.
hawkgrrrl wrote:No good ever comes from drinking alcohol or coffee or tea or gorging yourself on red meat.
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If Mormons had a rule that you always wear pink socks on Tuesday, then not wearing pink socks on Tuesday would be a line in the sand.
HG…I don’t want to thread jack on godlives’ support issue here, but can you check out this post and give me your thoughts on what you said?I put my question here:
http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=772&p=11195#p11195 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=772&p=11195#p11195 I avoided responding at first, because my own opinion is pretty strong on this one. (The tea question is outside my response; I am focusing here on alcohol, tobacco, coffee and gorging on meat.) However . . . I just don’t see it as worth fighting. In fact, I see it as wrong / selfish to fight the general principles of the WofW. There are SEVERE negative consequences for some people who don’t follow the WofW restrictions “religiously” – and there are NO negative consequences (other than peer pressure) in living it. It’s a truly tiny sacrifice, imo, so I just don’t care one whit about challenging it.
I know full well that my view on this come almost entirely from my upbringing, but I just don’t see contributing to some things that truly are horribly destructive in society as a good thing just to show independence and personal control. To be totally blunt, I believe that if you have enough control to drink responsibly, you have enough control to abstain for the overall good of society.
I really do put these types of addictive substances in a category of things to be avoided on general principle – especially alcohol, tobacco products and coffee. For example, I don’t give a large rodent’s hindquarters about studies that talk about the positive effects of small amounts of wine daily. I don’t disbelieve that as a general rule, but I’ve known WAY too many people who started out as healthy, social drinkers and ended up as alcoholics to approve of alcoholic consumption even in moderation. I’d rather everyone give up a tiny, inconsequential, no-big-deal thing like this than some people ruin their lives from a misguided sense that it’s not all that bad.
In response to the original question I agree with Valoel, and I would add the question – why can’t God be in the chemical response that triggers your emotions? Even if it is a product of brainwashing? I’m sure I lost someone on that, but it may be something to think about (someday it may not sound so crazy as it does now) …a similar line to Hawk’s “the spirit is psychology”. On the “whys” or “why-nots” I have to agree with Hawk.
hawkgrrrl wrote:Personally, I have been in both places on WoW, and I believe that it is in fact a great spiritual principle. No good ever comes from drinking alcohol or coffee or tea or gorging yourself on red meat.
It sounds like I’m in a different boat than most members, and probably most StayLDS-ers. I realized early on that I didn’t want to do anything in my life just because “the church told me to.” That didn’t sound like a good enough reason to me. When I decided I wasn’t going to drink, I made up my mind from my own logic, and as I adopted my own personal beliefs it wasn’t something that would change with disaffection. Understanding the true nature of divine direction in the church is one thing – my own beliefs about how I live my life are another. Most people would think the WoW is a cake walk if they got a good look at my own personal health code!
What I’m saying is I think it’s a good idea to take your time and not rush to change anything in your life. “Spite” can often turn and bite you back.
hawkgrrrl wrote:…for those who wish to StayLDS, there’s no question that it’s going to make that harder if for no other reason than Mormons don’t drink alcohol or coffee or tea. If Mormons had a rule that you always wear pink socks on Tuesday, then not wearing pink socks on Tuesday would be a line in the sand.
I agree with this as well, though I understand how some people at various stages may wish to draw that line in the sand. I think its wise to always remember that our beliefs and positions shift over time.
hawkgrrrl wrote:for those who wish to StayLDS, there’s no question that it’s going to make that harder if for no other reason than Mormons don’t drink alcohol or coffee or tea. If Mormons had a rule that you always wear pink socks on Tuesday, then not wearing pink socks on Tuesday would be a line in the sand. You’d feel naughty or different or defiant for wearing white socks on Tuesday. It’s a deliberate way to “not” stay LDS, to set yourself outside of it. And I say that as your internal experience, not because of what others will think of you. You are making an internal decision.
While I agree in practice with you that breaking the Word of Wisdom is not going to help you stay LDS and will likely help you “not” stay LDS, I don’t understand why WoW should exclusively be in this category. It seems to me that believing the BoM is a literal history, that the word of the prophet IS the word of the Lord and “when the prophet has spoken the debate is over”, and believing that acting on gay attractions is sinful are similar in defining someone who is LDS. I don’t think any of these issues or even WoW have to make you “not” stay LDS if you do not subscribe to them, but it does make you “unorthodox”. Similar to as you described, you are making an internal decision to place yourself outside of the LDS circle if you disbelieve the literal history of the BoM, question the prophet, or support gay marriage.
Old-Timer wrote:(The tea question is outside my response; I am focusing here on alcohol, tobacco, coffee and gorging on meat.)
I’m not quite sure why you place your focus on coffee and “gorging on meat”. I don’t think the health effects of coffee in any way parallel the concerns you have with alcohol. As for “gorging on meat,” TBMs rarely abstain from meat. In fact, studies have shown that Mormons are actually at an increased risk for certain types of cancer due to their higher than average meat consumption. You would think if it was all about health, there would be more emphasis on abstaining from meat. Can you explain your inclusion of coffee and meat?
Orson wrote:why can’t God be in the chemical response that triggers your emotions?
My own thought that I couldn’t be feeling confirmation from God when breaking the WoW, of course stemmed from my belief that the WoW was from God. Of course, if I disbelieve the WoW is from God, I could certainly be feeling spiritual confirmation that God wanted me to break the WoW. In general I am a person who is a conformist. I like following traditions just for tradition sake. Maybe God knew I needed to break the WoW so that I could move forward without the constraints of my Stage 3 views and the pressure to conform that I put on myself.
What an interesting thread. Everyone seems to have a slightly different opinion. I suppose I’ll throw mine into the mix. godlives wrote:For instance, don’t drink coffee but drink a couple energy drinks. One is on the temple recommend list, and one is not. Both have similar impact.
I disagree. In fact, I believe the question is “Do you keep the Word of Wisdom”? Nothing more, nothing less. I realize I’m being technical here and most Mormons will disagree, but that’s all that’s on the temple recommend list. Nothing about tea, coffee, alcohol, tobacco, etc. So let’s be clear about what we’re talking about here. Thispage
Quote:When people purposefully take anything harmful into their bodies, they are not living in harmony with the Word of Wisdom. Illegal drugs can especially destroy those who use them. The abuse of prescription drugs is also destructive spiritually and physically.
That’s about as ambiguous as possible! Also, I don’t find anything on this page that says “if you drink a cup of tea you can no longer answer ‘yes’ on the accompanying temple recommend interview question.” There’s lots of stuff about addictions, harmful substances, respecting our bodies, etc. etc. So the point is, you get to choose what constitutes “keeping” and “not keeping” the WoW.When I was in my stages of darkest despair with my anger I had a caramel mocha one time, and a beer two times. Guess what? I’m not addicted, I’m not dead, the world still turns, and I even renewed my TR on Sunday
😯 I talked to a guy at work from England who used to work in a winery and we had lots of discussions about “acquired taste.” We also discussed why people drink, since even he agreed it made no sense. I am convinced that in large measure it is a social construct and once one accepts the construct, adapts to the taste, he/she comes to like the stuff. My dad used to drink beer (when he was inactive). When he reactivated he stopped but he still loves the taste. I’m sure some people actually like the burning-alcohol-in-their-throat sensation naturally, but probably not the majority of folks.For me, if I’m being honest, I “obey” the WoW for two reasons:
1. I saw what alcohol did to people on my mission in Russia.
2. While I don’t necessarily think what happens to people in Russia will happen to me, I have honestly never really been drawn to drinking, or coffee. I don’t really like not being in control of my mind and body, and I don’t really like the taste. I’m not 100% committed to never drinking coffee, tea, or alcohol ever again, per se, but I’m also not interested doing those things. And smoking, well, that’s about last on my list of anything I ever want to try. As for tea, I’m not sure. I drank lots and lots of tea (just not green or black) on my mission in Russia. I didn’t love it, but didn’t hate it either. I would probably try green tea if it came my way, but I’m not that interested in going out of my way to try it. The documented health benefits do seem to be worthwhile. But Mormons will hold out claiming God knows best and science will come around eventually, so I don’t plan on the church abandoning the tea issue any time soon.
As a general principle I don’t believe that alcohol, tobacco, or coffee promote happiness, safety, or health.
Oh and as for the question of spirit or psychology, I agree mostly with #2 in Valoel’s response. But like others, I don’t think that just because “the elephant” (the automatic subconcsious processes) is telling you not to do it makes it not “true” especially for you. MC said: Quote:While I agree in practice with you that breaking the Word of Wisdom is not going to help you stay LDS and will likely help you “not” stay LDS, I don’t understand why WoW should exclusively be in this category.
I wouldn’t say it’s the only thing in that category. Anything one deliberately does to separate oneself from the community will have that self-reinforcing effect.
Quote:It seems to me that believing the BoM is a literal history, that the word of the prophet IS the word of the Lord and “when the prophet has spoken the debate is over”, and believing that acting on gay attractions is sinful are similar in defining someone who is LDS. I don’t think any of these issues or even WoW have to make you “not” stay LDS if you do not subscribe to them, but it does make you “unorthodox”. Similar to as you described, you are making an internal decision to place yourself outside of the LDS circle if you disbelieve the literal history of the BoM, question the prophet, or support gay marriage.
I see an important distinction between belief and behavior. Behavior is very clearly a choice. Belief is not necessarily a choice; it’s far trickier than that. Belief is somewhat passive. Behavior is deliberate. Personally, I’d like to see the TR interview questions focus exclusively on behaviors and not beliefs for this reason. In a way, I think behaviors are far more important than beliefs. But what I was referring to was specifically why breaking “Mormon rules” leads one away from staying LDS. Also, I think you can take yourself out of Mormonism, yet not be able to take the Mormonism out of yourself.
A friend and I were discussing a relative of his who became atheist. This person decided that because there was no God, he didn’t feel obligated to his marriage any longer, and he immediately quit doing anything he felt was related to the “sham” concept of love. He stopped investing in his relationship with his wife and kids because he suddenly saw the whole thing as an artificial construct to trap him. (Let me pause to say that it would be a completely unfair generalization to say that atheists are selfish and consider all bets off once they “decide” God doesn’t exist. First of all, many atheists are highly moral and highly ethical. Their disbelief in God doesn’t drive radical behavioral changes or dropping other things that make sense to them whether God exists or not like altruism and the benefits of reciprocal marital fidelity.) My view was that while this person may not have been able to choose to believe in God – some people just don’t – he did make choices about whether or not to invest in relationships with his family. He chose whether to be a part of that family or to leave it through passivity, allowing his relationships to atrophy until it became easy to leave. Those behaviors are choices. Not believing in God was probably not his choice.
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