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I’ve been reading posts on this site for several months. This is actually the third time I’ve attempted to post an introduction message on this board. I took so long on the first two messages that I timed out or something and lost everything I wrote–all those heartfelt and inspired words, gone. After the first time I thought, “well, maybe that is a sign that I shouldn’t be leaving messages here.” But then, after some months, I felt the urge to share again. This time the message had more depth (from what I can remember anyway) and more insight, but POOF again the message was lost and didn’t get posted. I didn’t necessarily take this as a sign (of anything more than me being stupid and not saving the message to a word processing file before attempting to post it), but I didn’t have the energy to do it all over again. So, maybe third time is a charm.
I’m not from strong and long mormon roots, but became active in my early teens, was pretty much a good kid throughout, served an honorable mission, worked hard, married in temple, tried (still trying) hard to raise good kids, served (still serving) in several callings over the years, the standard mormon boy fare. I was never “hardcore TBM” so to speak, in that I’ve always been quite open and somewhat liberal in my beliefs and try to be as objective as I can in trying to understand things and search for truth. I felt the church supported and promoted this approach. Still, I believed and preached the basic fare, all the while feeling a little bothered by many of the same things people get to wondering about. Also, like many of you, my years of higher education and study brought me to those common chasms we all face when seriously studying and trying to understand our church. I had those faith shakes (still do), but stayed the course for the most part. Fortunately (I think it was fortunately), I had kind, intelligent, and open-minded bishops at the rare times when my beliefs ran perpendicular to something I was asked or assigned to do so that I just could not do that thing. I could relate my feelings and be understood without being called to repentance or pushed away. I still appreciate that. Still, I thought I was mostly alone in my worries, thoughts, beliefs, and concerns. Imagine my joy when I found this forum several months ago!
For quite a number of years I felt a strong desire to search for truth, to ferret it out from under every rock and crevice from disciplines as varied as geology, astronomy, physics, psychology, and religion. I prayed to understand truth. I believed truth was eternal and consistent and … well, black and white for the most part. Then, like most of you, I found the data a little too overwhelming to completely ignore and I started to really question everything. But… then many things I learned over the years started to gel together helping me understand and appreciate that my view of truth seemed kind of immature. Why does it have to be categorical? Most things in the universe do not seem to be so absolute. Time certainly is not. Gravity is not. Why can’t “truth” be relative too? Then, I found that many of you sort of arrived at this same truth place. Interesting and cool.
Under this new paradigm of truth, it’s easier for me to be involved and active in church. It is still sometimes tough when belief and good sense (in my opinion) runs counter to an assignment or new idea from the bp or sp, and I certainly have to hold my tongue and not say what I really think many times. It is also difficult to explain my misgivings, ideas, and thoughts to a TBspouse who is terrified I will leave the church and that our family won’t be together forever. I’m more involved in church because of my family. Also, a few years ago I divulged some of my misgivings and difficulties with a younger brother I’m very close to, but that just scared him; he basically told me that much of his faith was based on me and my example. I realized that he has a strong desire to believe and was not ready to hear anything from ME that questioned or challenged what he’d based his life upon. I understand… that’s a hard road. I understand that my wife doesn’t want to hear it either.
So, I’m at this place where I’m not sure what I want and not sure what the future holds. I do like this church and still want to be a part of it. I love my family and definitely want to be a part of them. I want my kids to be happy and I want them to be good and follow church standards. These are good standards for the most part. But… I also want them to think for themselves. I want them to understand that we don’t have a monopoly on truth… And, that truth is slippery and prone to readjustment over time.
Hi Cnsl1, The third time is definitely the charm! Thanks for sharing your story. I am really excited to hear more from you, a kindred soul for sure. Welcome to the community.
Cnsl1 wrote:For quite a number of years I felt a strong desire to search for truth, to ferret it out from under every rock and crevice from disciplines as varied as geology, astronomy, physics, psychology, and religion. I prayed to understand truth. I believed truth was eternal and consistent and … well, black and white for the most part.
Keep searching. I am sure you also realized this in your journey so far, but that “slippery” and elusive truth, that search for “treasure” is just as valid and alive as ever, even after we release your expectations on consistency and the absolute.
Cnsl1 wrote:many things I learned over the years started to gel together helping me understand and appreciate that my view of truth seemed kind of immature. Why does it have to be categorical? Most things in the universe do not seem to be so absolute. Time certainly is not. Gravity is not. Why can’t “truth” be relative too? Then, I found that many of you sort of arrived at this same truth place. Interesting and cool.
QFT. I loved how you described that.
Cnsl1 wrote:So, I’m at this place where I’m not sure what I want and not sure what the future holds. I do like this church and still want to be a part of it. I love my family and definitely want to be a part of them. I want my kids to be happy and I want them to be good and follow church standards. These are good standards for the most part. But… I also want them to think for themselves. I want them to understand that we don’t have a monopoly on truth… And, that truth is slippery and prone to readjustment over time.
Welcome Cnsl1. You write well, and I found myself reminiscing about my spiritual journey…maybe about 15 years ago. I had to laugh at your comment about “higher education.” It reminded me about when I started my undergrad work at the U of U…right after getting home from my mission in ’79. I took Biology 101, and the first day the Prof said “I know there are many in here of a certain religious persuasion that might have a hard time accepting evolution. Let me put this simply: ‘evolution’ is the foundation for all of biology; if you refuse to believe it, then youll need to be able to have an attitude of “if this were true, then this would explain how X happens…””
My response (quietly) was, “okay, I ‘know’ it isn’t true, but I’ll play the game.” Obviously, a few months later I had the cog-dis of needing to resolve the differences between church teachings and science. This was a time that “church” taught strongly against evolution; fortunately, times have changed.
Anyway, I want to make a brief comment about your statement, “I want my kids to be happy and I want them to be good and follow church standards.” Of course we all want our kids to be happy. We want them to be “good” (moral, ethical, etc…). Most everybody, religious or not, wants that for their children. And I, personally, would take the next part of your statement and re-word it just a bit…”follow church standards” might be changed to “follow gospel standards.” This might just be me, through much experience…but “gospel standards” I see as unconditional love, not ‘judging others,’ service to all equally, etc.. I’m not trying to “slam” the church culture, but I often see these issues as problems with many church members. Even the church position against gay marriage, IMO, is immoral and against the “gospel.”
But maybe I’m just being a bit judgmental myself….
😳 Welcome aboard, and I anticipate many stimulating discussions with you!
Rix, I meant exactly what you said. Rather than “follow church standards”, I’d rather my kids learn to follow gospel or Christ-like standards (or maybe we should say “goodness” ideals and moral, ethical values from whatever source). I agree that church societal customs or norms do not always follow logic, good sense, or Christ-like values. Most of the times, yes, but not always. I would like my kids to have the faith, confidence, and sense to be able to stand up against something they feel is not right. But how does one teach quiet, sensible rebellion whilst my actions show “Daddy’s just another good member obeying the commandments and fulfilling his calling”? Maybe this is where Fowler’s developmental stages is helpful. I’m at a different place in my spiritual development and faith than is a teenager or a child. For now, I try to keep the windows open by asking interesting questions during scripture study, promoting a tolerant and loving attitude toward those “non”members, and keeping the focus on the blessings of service and moral behavior. If my kids don’t complete all the primary, YW, or scout award requirements I’m not going to make a big fuss. I know most of the goals of those achievement awards are designed to help kids become better humans, but I also know that those pamphlets are not the only road to get there.
Love your insight, cnsl1!! Welcome, I, too, am excited that you are here to share with us!
Quote:But how does one teach quiet, sensible rebellion whilst my actions show “Daddy’s just another good member obeying the commandments and fulfilling his calling”?
Perhaps by not thinking of it as “rebellion”. I don’t teach my kids rebellion – EVER. I teach them to think about everything and live according to the dictates of their own conscience. They can do that without rebelling, and I model that for them.
How do I do that?
1) By talking about things I hear in Church with which I disagree, but ALWAYS in the context of how much I love and admire the people who say them – and ALWAYS in context of how much I love serving in the Church – and ALWAYS in the context of WHY I disagree, based on my view of the pure Gospel of Christ and the pure core of Mormonism. My kids know full well that I don’t believe everything I hear in Church – and even in General Conference occasionally – and often can tell me the things with which I disagree before I mention it to them. For example, they know I don’t like one of the lines in “Away in a Manger”. They laugh about it now, but it will be a foundation for them when they hear things that really bother them – and that has happened with my oldest four already more than once.
2) By skipping some meetings / gatherings / events at church for other things – or simply because right now we can’t afford the gas costs of driving 50 miles round-trip for such things. We go on Sunday, and we go on Wednesday – and we go to something else very rarely. All those other things are optional in their entirety, so we do what we can – and I teach them that making that choice is not wrong in ANY way.
Old-Timer wrote:For example, they know I don’t like one of the lines in “Away in a Manger”.
Ah, “no crying he makes”. Anyway, I really like the ideal you are sharing. Thanks, Ray. Very much so.
Cnsl1 – great post! Very glad you joined us. Hi. 
Cnsl1 wrote:
But… then many things I learned over the years started to gel together helping me understand and appreciate that my view of truth seemed kind of immature. Why does it have to be categorical? Most things in the universe do not seem to be so absolute. Time certainly is not. Gravity is not. Why can’t “truth” be relative too? Then, I found that many of you sort of arrived at this same truth place. Interesting and cool.
This sounds familiar. I think I’ve told my TBM DH twice that his faith was immature.
Cnsl1 wrote:
So, I’m at this place where I’m not sure what I want and not sure what the future holds. I do like this church and still want to be a part of it. I love my family and definitely want to be a part of them. I want my kids to be happy and I want them to be good and follow church standards. These are good standards for the most part. But… I also want them to think for themselves. I want them to understand that we don’t have a monopoly on truth… And, that truth is slippery and prone to readjustment over time.
You forgot to add that you want to find a happy place. Your mental/spiritual/emotional state is important too.Unless that is some sort of given. If you want your children to “Be” a certain way become a teacher, a guide and a leader full of wisdom, advice, love and lotts of fun.Thanks for all the kind comments and support. Ray, I agree and “rebellion” wasn’t exactly the word I was looking for because it’s so often pejorative. I really don’t want quiet rebels… and cautiously obedient didn’t sound right either. I guess it’s a normal and natural progression that when you come to a new place of knowledge or belief that you want your loved ones in on it. But, many of them probably aren’t ready for it yet. I agree with your model and have basically have been doing about the same thing as you. I have probably fallen short on allowing them their own growth and taking time to listen better when they express the normal kid complaints about church stuff (e.g., “I don’t wanna go!”). In the past, I’ve been more the dictator saying, “Get dressed, you’re going.”
What’s wrong with Away in a Manger? Other than it has about a dozen versions. One of the older versions has always been one of my favorites (but not because of the words, heh). I do think the church has wrecked some pretty good songs, but have certainly improved many others (look in Methodist or Baptist Hymnals and compare). I don’t know why I’ve bounced to hymns in this post but I have to say that I think “I Believe in Christ” is a terrible hymn (again, not because of the words). I don’t pay as much attention to the words in songs, I guess.
LaLaLove, yes I want to be in a happy place too. Mentally, physically, emotionally, spirtitually, psychologically. All of the lly’s.
Speaking of happy… Merry Christmas, happy holidays everyone. Wishes and prayers of happiness and health to you all.
“Little Lord Jesus, no crying he makes.” UGH!! I know: picky. I just don’t like things that deny Jesus’ mortality and human-ness – and this phrase is my example of it. Just ignore me when it comes to that particular song.
😈 Re: Away in a Manger. Ah, it was just that although the cows woke him up they didn’t make him cry. I didn’t take that as an infant who never cried, but that this kid was calmer than most and didn’t cry that particular moment (probably because he was posing for the song). The lowing of cattle didn’t bother him, though. I can believe that. Now, what about the braying of donkeys? That’s completely different. Had the donkeys brayed when the song was being written we’d have this line:
“The donkeys are braying, the poor baby blubbers,
then screams in his manger, which wakes up his mother.
‘It’s your turn to rock him’, she says to her man.
‘And while you are up kill that ass if you can.'”
Classic! WOW!! That is amazing. I think I will be laughing for months! Welcome Cnsl1, glad you tried a third time! The word processor is our friend!! (I too learned that the hard way.)
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