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This is a spin off from the TR thread. Some mentioned that it is important to be “out” to some degree. I am not out. I am pretty much IN. DH knows I am a heretic, but that is about it. I did voice many heretical questions in my OT institute class, but I did it in a way that I think was appropriate. I don’t think anyone questions my standing as a member.
Anyway. Being “out” sounds painful. What if I just want to avoid that pain? I live with my TBM parents. I don’t think I want to deal with the drama of being different.
At the same time, I am worried. I worry about what I am teaching my children. I am not a scripture literalist AT ALL. I don’t believe in an anthropomorphic God, except for his manifestation in us. I don’t believe that God murders or ever REQUIRES people to kill. Not ever. That eliminates a lot of basic gospel lessons that are being taught as literal-Nephi/Laban, Abraham/Isaac, OT wars, Noah’s Flood, right down to the Jesus
havingto be murdered. And I don’t think Satan is a real spirit being. I think it is an explanation of something inside us. I think everythingis about what is happening inside us. I don’t believe in a literal gathering of Isreal, although I guess it could happen. I really dislike some of the things being taught to my children, but I don’t even know how to change what is happening.
I don’t come up for TR renewal for another couple months. That hasn’t been an issue the entire time I have been changing.
I feel conflicted. I feel conflicted whenever I read threads about people leaving the church or telling their families. Especially when children are involved. I just don’t know what to do or how to do it.
I like my calling, for the most part. I am the primary secretary and it is mostly busy work. I like that. I don’t want to be seen as a problem and never given a calling again.
That is my ramble. I don’t know anything anymore. And I worry too much about what other people think.
Sorry, I think I make lots of posts about being conflicted. It seems to be my new path. 😆 I am not being authentic. I know this because I would be doing things differently if I lived by myself. Of course, I don’t hink it is wrong to take others into consideration-especially children. But, the only reason I wear garments is because of my parents. I try to tell myself it is because I identify with my group and it is the clothing of my group, but the real reason is fear of being found out.
Well, you have stated pretty well the problems with being “in” the closet. I think the consensus of the psychological field is that those problems are serious enough to warrant careful, slow, reasoned, upbeat, positive, culture appropriate, only gently subversive “out”-ing. Tom Haws wrote:Well, you have stated pretty well the problems with being “in” the closet. I think the consensus of the psychological field is that those problems are serious enough to warrant careful, slow, reasoned, upbeat, positive, culture appropriate, only gently subversive “out”-ing.
Wait. You mean I won’t be conflicted anymore when I am “out?”
Crap. I was too busy being conflicted to realize that. I still don’t know how to do this. I have always been the “goody goody” and I am a rule follower by nature. I have no idea how to say “gee, I don’t think that way anymore.” Although, maybe I have given more hints than I think I have in more recent conversations. But, often I just be quite when I disagree.
Of course the answer to the question is “it depends.” It depends on how you feel about answering certain questions about belief in a metaphorical way, rather than literal like they are implying. I greatly admire Ray, Brian, and the others that have been able to do it and feel good about it. I don’t. I choose to be mostly “out.” Everybody around me knows what I believe — they don’t understand it, but there is no deception. At all. For me, it just feels much more honest…and for me, that authenticity is very important. From my own history and experience, when I try to lead a dual life…constantly looking over my shoulder to see who I can say X to, it feels deceitful. And I don’t like the feeling. My personality is the type that prefers to tell a person right up front what I believe — then there are no surprises. I attend minimally, and often attend other services — depending on my mood.
I say things like “I am a Mormon, but I don’t believe that we can know what experiences Joseph really had; I don’t believe the burning in the bosom is a good indicator of physical events; I believe each person can have powerful spiritual experiences…in or out of the church — but that experience is usually very personal, and rarely indicates “truthiness” of anything. It is a beautiful feeling that is uplifting and loving. I get them all the time — but more often in the solitude of nature than in a church building. I believe in God — not as a perfected human, but as a metaphor for all that is good.”
I don’t hold a temple recommend because (and this is only for me…) I feel deceitful in answering the questions in a way that is different than they intend. Besides, I find the temple boring
😳 …and a place where the majority of the attendees are faking a smile to look good to the others there — wanting to get their emotional kudos for being obedient…and I dislike that kind of codependency.I really do love the community and support of the church. Mormons are some of the most compassionate people I know. It is my tribe. But for now, I feel best to be “out” mostly in order to feel authentic. I am (fortunately) old enough to not have issues with young children — the adult kids each know my feelings. My wife believes as I do…that really helps!
My mother is a temple worker…and yes, she feels I am an apostate. I chose to have that situation rather than a deceitful one. She’s (mostly) past it…and I’m sure my name is on the temple rolls a lot! And I’ll take all the blessings I can get!
😆 This is going to be one of those “direct” comments: I’m as “out” as it is possible to get when it comes to my beliefs – but I’m firmly “in” the Church.I don’t hesitate to share my opinions, as anyone in the entire Bloggernacle knows 😆 – but eveyone knows I’m fully committed to the Church. I don’t lie; I don’t hide my beliefs; I don’t mince words; I don’t let stupid things go unchallenged; I constantly express my view in public and privately with individuals. Some people are “out” – while I am “way out there”. I also am “in”.It doesn’t have to be one or the other – “in” or “out”.That’s part of the black and white wolrdview that causes so much of the dissonance experienced by those entering Stage 4. Let me try to put it this way:
Why could Elder Wirthlin serve in the same quorum as Elder McConkie and Elder Packer? Why can Elder Packer serve in the same quorum as Elder Andersen and Elder Cook? Do you really think that they pull punches with each other about their beliefs on topics they discuss? Believe me, it doesn’t happen that way. They hash it all out openly and honestly – and generally don’t move forward until there is a consensus.
What’s the difference in a ward? Primarily, people who are less willing to grant that others can disagree and still be fine, faithful, dedicated members of the Church. When Elder Wirthlin begged that we allow ALL instruments in the orchestra to be heard, he was saying that it’s OK to be different in the way one thinks and sees lots of things (and even “sounds” to others) – to be “out” of the normal range, if you will. The key is being “in” the orchestra – actively playing your own instrument – not sitting on the sidelines worried about sounding different.
This simply isn’t about how others view you; it’s about how you view yourself. Nothing is going to change until recognition of that occurs.
i feel the same way. i’m certainly not orthodox in any degree in the majority of my spiritual beliefs. i don’t believe in “one true church”, violence in the scriptures, literal interpretations of scripture, historical issues, etc,etc,etc. but i too try to be completely “in” or “active”. i guess i’m a lot younger than most of you and haven’t had to deal with the same issues. i go to a single’s ward and people are more concerned with the girl theyre sitting next to then being doctrinally correct. taking a completely honest look at myself i know i wouldn’t choose to be an active mormon unless i was born in to this church. i believe it is in my best interests socially and spiritually to remain active. i can help more people spiritually “in” the church then “out” of it. i might have to put up with boring gospel doctrine classes, or the occational comment i completely disagree but i don’t have any problem bringing up my questions, concerns, and opinions in the right setting. obviously you have to pick and choose which fights are worth fighting but for me my main core beliefs have never been challenged in any direct way. if i were asked to do something i didn’t believe in i would politely decline. if something is taught even from the gc pulpit that i don’t believe in, i discard it. i’m not required to pretend to believe anything i don’t. i don’t have to go up at fast and testimony and repeat the same old repetative rhetoric. i can keep my feelings inside or i can go up and say whatever i want. i guess it’s cause i’m in a position socially within myself that i don’t care if people know my doubts, concerns, or unorthodox position. i’m what i believe and i’m not gonna change for you, i’ll change because i feel it’s right. at the same time how am i ever gonna connect to someone in happy valley if i don’t go to church and try my best to fufill my callings. i’m currently the ward photographer. i don’t think anyone could have any moral objections to that calling. and I also believe strongly that those who believe they are outside the norm in the Church would be shocked at how many others feel the same way – including MANY who serve in very visible positions. An example:
I have lived in quite a few wards in my life. In one particular situation, our Gospel Doctrine teacher brought up the topic of Divine Investiture (the idea that the Son often speaks as if he were the Father, since he represents the Father). The extreme version of this is that the Father never once spoke directly with man until he appeared to Joseph Smith in the First Vision. Our GD teacher believed this firmly, for no other reason than a Prophet had said it – so he used it to say that a passage we were reading was the Son (Jehovah) speaking, even though it referred to “Mine Only Begotten Son”.
Glancing around the class, I could tell that about half of the members attending weren’t totally comfortable with that – but not so uncomfortable that they felt like making an issue about it. I raised my hand and said, essentially, “I know lots of members who believe differently about that particular issue – but I personally don’t care. The words are the Father’s no matter if he or the Son is saying them, so as long as we recognize that they are the Father’s words I’m fine with it.”
I could have made an issue or confrontation out of it, and I could have remained silent – like everyone else there who didn’t agree totally. Instead, I simply said that it’s ok to not see it that exact way – and the conversation moved on.
The interesting thing is that a couple of weeks later, there was a similar situation with something that was taught, and one of the very repsected sister in that ward spoke up and said, “I just can’t see it that way. When I read it, I get (a different message).” After the class, before Priesthood meeting, another brother who was in a presidency in the ward leaned toward me and said, “Whenever we get into those types of deep discussions (controversial ones is what he meant), my brain starts to hurt – so I just tune it out until they’re done. I figure I’ll understand it someday, but I just don’t care right now.” Both of those members are seen by EVERYONE as faithful, dedicated members (because they are) – and actually as orthodox, conservative members (because they just don’t care about corercting everything with which they disagree).
As I said, I think this happens WAY more often than most here think.
Hang on. Hang on. We aren’t talking here about being “out of the fold” or “out there on a limb” or “out of this world”. We are merely talking about being “out in the open” about our “interesting” perspective on things. Ray is out in the open. Valo… -er Brian is out in the open. Rix is out in the open. And the rest of us would do well to trust our own loving and beloved nature enough to be out in the open. I think the unanimous voice here is that it is important to be open in an appropriate and supportive way.
Tom Haws wrote:Hang on. Hang on. We aren’t talking here about being “out of the fold” or “out there on a limb” or “out of this world”. We are merely talking about being “out in the open” about our “interesting” perspective on things. Ray is out in the open. Valo… -er Brian is out in the open. Rix is out in the open. And the rest of us would do well to trust our own loving and beloved nature enough to be out in the open.
I think the unanimous voice here is that it is important to be open in an appropriate and supportive way.
Thank you. Gosh I’m weepy today.
I think I will have to agree with a few things Rix said. I currently hold a TR for one more month but I most likely won’t get in renewed in the near future. I’m not interested in rewording questions to fit my own beliefs-personally if I had to, I would know that there would be an agenda and the agenda would be..get a recomend to make DH happy, In-laws happy etc., and that would go against by beliefs of honestly and being true to personal revelation I’ve recieved in my life. I know some of the questions are open to interpretation..however garments are a no.. obeying the WOW ,as it is has been interpretated today, is a no. I can reword some other questions because they seem open to it but those are two definate questions that I don’t “obey”.
It would be a blow to my confidence, personal relationship with God and my progress in life and spirtuality to “live” or “obey” anything for an easy way out of an akward situation, to avoid conflict, to avoid disagreement etc.
I personally feel God wouldn’t be too happy with me if after everything I have learned and felt, that I went against my own conscience and still lived for others beliefs, in order to fit in or be viewed as a member of the crowd.
DH knows how I feel about many things. He somewhat understands many of my questions and agrees with Church history and culture causing some sticky, confusing problems. He knows all people can do is take what knowledge they have and go a direction with it. My way happens to be a different way than his .. but one isn’t any better than the other.
I don’t like the all in or out stuff. I guess some people would say I’m out. Don’t care.
Living a double life is torture! Now that I speak my mind (with others emotions in mind, for the most part) I feel I’m being honest to myself, to others and that I’m respecting what God and life have given to me. We have a daughter and she will know what I think and believe about certain things – No pretending, no lying (no Church bashing) but no putting it on a pedestal either.
This is a great exercise, LaLa!! I’m sure there are many that can empathize with your exact situation. I know that it took me years to come “out”. It also took external impetus to move me to a place of complete honesty, with both myself and those around me. Eventually, I was able to “out” myself to my DW and, luckily for me, she was totally supportive. My parents and in-laws were a different story but it forced me and my DW to examine the boundaries that should have existed but never did. (obviously, using them as financial “rainy day” funds didn’t help)
I know that, in the long run, being “out” and living “out” is an important part of the human spiritual journey. It is the “personal” part of personal journey. How that looks and what it feels like, only you will know.
As Ray said, the brethren often encourage this type of personal journey. The culture does not. So, it takes time and prayer and meditation and discussion to generate the epiphanies necessary to follow your heart in a way that is constructive for both you and those around you.
The one thing that I learned above all others, is that in the process of coming “out”, my sincerity, honesty and past diligence made it impossible for anyone to doubt that I was earnest in my expressions of “belief” and “duty”. Like you, LaLa, I had attempted with all sincerity to live what was expected… like my signature says (thanks to poppy). I tried perfection and it didn’t work out for ME. But, that’s just me.
BTW, if anyone asks about a heterodox belief of yours, simply say: Quote:“I’m just not a piccolo with regard to that idea. I’m more of a tuba (or bassoon or cello or bagpipe . . .).”
I’m dead serious, since that might get a confused look and give an opportunity to quote Elder Wirthlin and explain that you really appreciate an apostle saying that there is room for you to have different views about some things and still remain an active and faithful member. If more and more members actually quoted that talk (“Concern for the One”) whenever they mentioned a different perspective, the imagery might last and catch on and start to change the attitude the talk addressed.
With that in mind, I’ve added to my signature.
thread jack alert 😳 I grew up in the old west part of the inner mountain west so occasionally a steel guitar was played in sacrament meeting as part of a musical number.
I wanna be the steel guitar…
😳 😈 Quote:I see through my glass, darkly – as I play my saxophone in harmony with the other instruments in God’s orchestra.
Thanks for that, Ray.
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