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From Margaret Young ( http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/25/they-fought-as-they-were-taught/#comment-156386 Quote:In LDS theology, we talk about “redeeming the dead.” I think at least a portion of this means that we undo their errors and create a better world on the foundation – but also the ruins – of what they’ve left to us. Sometimes, we simply rearrange the ruins like a puzzle which makes a different kind of sense in a different kind of world.
They bequeath both a legacy and a burden – and we are called to responsibility.My response (
http://bycommonconsent.com/2009/08/25/they-fought-as-they-were-taught/#comment-156585 Quote:Margaret, I also am touched by the idea of redeeming our dead by building what they were unable to build and letting go of what they could not.
I hope my own descendants will redeem me in exactly that manner.I love this concept, Ray! For me, this perspective means infinitely more to me than just genealogy work and baptisms for the dead (not that there’s anything wrong with that 😳 )Dear Ray, I have been thinking and praying a lot lately about redemption of the dead. I prayed so long and hard for peace on this issue. My feelings were about “the Spirit of Elijah” who would turn the hearts of the children to the fathers and the hearts of the fathers to the children before the great and terrible day of the Lord. If this did not happen, the earth would be totally wasted at His coming.
My own personal interpretation of that is that I should turn my own heart to my living children and grandchildren and to those little spirits yet unborn because they will turn to me. They all depend on me to protect and preserve this earth upon which they will reside. If I pollute and destroy this earth and I don’t think of all of those little unborn children who will have to live on this earth once I leave it, the earth will be “totally wasted” at His coming. |It will be a wasteland of trash, radioactive waste, and deforested, bare land. My own ancestors protect and preserved the land. The irrigated, planted forests and tended to the earth. |I need to turn my heart toward them for their example.
That is my “Spirit of Elijah”.
Quote:In LDS theology, we talk about “redeeming the dead.” I think at least a portion of this means that we undo their errors and create a better world on the foundation – but also the ruins – of what they’ve left to us.[/b]
I still haven’t figured out this quote thing. Anyway, I don’t understand what she is saying here. Does this mean that we do temple work to undo their errors? So, if we do their work any mistakes (sins) they did in their life will magically disappear? I don’t get it.
I just read my comment and thought it might sound mean. But I really don’t understand and just wanted you to explain it to me. Thanks so much
It’s cool, peaceandjoy. I didn’t take it as a criticism. The quote in question is one that I take to be an expansion or re-symbolizing of the term “redeem the dead”. We all know of the ceremonial practice of vicarious ordinances, but I read Margaret’s comment as focusing on the practical ways in which we can “redeem” the impact of their actions on the here and now – on this earth – on the lives of their ancestors.
Let me try to say it this way:
I know that part of who I am is inherited from thoe who came before me. Thus, what I do is (in part) a result of what they did. Thus, they are partially responsible for me. Thus, one of the ways I can “redeem” them is to act in such a way that their actions (in helping to create me) result in good through me. Thus, I must be willing to overlook and “forgive” the ruinous elements of what they gave me while recognizing and maximizing the goodness they left for and in me. Thus, as I look at my own descendants, I hope they can take what I leave for them (take what I gave to them in helping to create them), be charitable in how they view me and have the ultimate result be good through them.
In popular terms, this is like “leave the world a better place than it was when you arrived” – but it adds a personal element of gratitude for our ancestors’ role in making it possible for us to do that and a humility to hope that our own descendants will be charitable in how they view our efforts and strive to “redeem” us in the exact same way – by making our lives ultimately meaningful on a scale larger and more lasting than just what we lived on our own in mortality.
Ray, Thank you so much. I was born with this brain and sometimes I just can’t grasp concepts. I tend to get impatient and skip over ideas I don’t understand. But you explained it beautifully and it is a beautiful concept. Ray, I always love your views on work for the dead. Your thoughts and pondering on this subject are fantastic. It’s a difficult topic for many post-crisis members to see in different ways.
BTW, if you take my last comment and insert “Joseph Smith” or “Brigham Young” or anyone else in my communal heritage, the same concept applies. It’s an interesting exercise, and I recommend you go ahead and do it. Re-read my last comment with the suggested change, then do it again and insert anyone from your personal or communal past instead of “ancestors”. Did you have an abusive parent – a mean teacher – a petty Home Teacher – an unsympathetic Bishop? Try inserting their name. Do you have somsone now who will need to be “redeemed” in the future by someone else – perhaps your own descendants? Try inserting their name.
Reaching this general attitude has freed me from SO much stress and potential anger and bitterness and wasted energy. It’s how I personally view the term “Saviors on Mount Zion” – those who lose their own lives, in a sense, in an effort to “redeem the world”. (and I have no problem applying that term to anyone, anywhere – like Mother Theresa or the Assemblies of God missionary I met this week who helps establish safe houses for girls in third world countries who desperately need them) They are “redeeming the dead” in the way that Margaret describes.
I really like this idea. The OT says Yahweh will visit the sins of the fathers on their children unto the third and the fourth generation. But if we arise and atone, we redeem the fathers from that curse. Powerful. Love,
Tom
Tom Haws wrote:I really like this idea. The OT says Yahweh will visit the sins of the fathers on their children unto the third and the fourth generation. But if we arise and atone, we redeem the fathers from that curse. Powerful.
Love,
Tom
Yes! When studying the “curse” concept in the scriptures I loved how any curse could be broken as soon as people returned to Love/God.
Ray, I totally agree with your comments on redeeming the dead. That is how I see it. I think the best way to honor our dead is to not make the same mistakes, but love them and accept their own journey. That is often easier said than done.
I never thought about it that way before! Thanks Ray for giving me a new insight into redeeming the dead! Love this concept…I have pondered along these lines many times in the past year. Ray, your point is well taken here. Why wait until our fathers/mothers/those who have offended are literally dead? There is so much healing that be created as we love in a Christ-like way right NOW! This type of love has no expectation, no conditions. As I have cast off the expectations and conditional love I had for myself I have been able to move forward and stop blaming and being a victim. I no longer seek to control my relationships, just accept what the other person gives and realize it is the best they have at this point in time. My children recognize this now as well…as my heart has turned to them they are becoming free to BE who they really are and act out of love rather than fear. This understanding that we are all connected is so beautiful!
This issue on redemption of the dead has puzzled me and troubled me. Please take a moment to review this link: http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/ The above link discusses the controversy that is caused when the LDS Church uses Catholic Parish records (and record of other churches) to perform proxy baptisms. Some of the deceased Catholic Priests who took vows of celibacy during their lives have even been sealed to wives.
My feelings on this is that we should reverence and respect the dead as we would the living. We should uphold the choices that they made and the faith that they developed and maintained whilst on this earth. Many faithful Christians lived and died as members of the Catholic Church. Their names appeared on Parish Records. They were Christened and blessed as Catholics. Prior to their death, they received their “last rites” and anointing by a Catholic Priest.
Now how do we honor and respect the dead? The Catholic Church does not object to us doing family history (genealogy) for their deceased members. They do object to temple ordinance work being done on behalf of their deceased. This is just one of my dilemmas with proxy work. Please feel free to explain this to me.
MWallace, the problem is that such a stance would eliminate baptism for the dead at the practical level – since probably not one person who is not Mormon would want to be baptized into the LDS Church if s/he was offered that chance while living. I really don’t want this thread to turn to a generic discussion of vicarious ordinances.
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