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Here’s my intro thread – http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1169 Maybe it’s just because I haven’t read back far enough, but one thing I haven’t really seen addressed much in these forums is the veracity of Christianity itself. Perhaps we don’t question it because those around us don’t? There are two things I’m stuck on.
First, doctrinally, I don’t understand why we need Jesus. I have read plenty about mercy and justice, but it just seems like a lot of extra work. God is God. He could forgive sins himself. Is eternity really about growing up and becoming like him, or is it about “sin debt” that must be paid by human suffering? WTF? If you step back for a second, it really stops making sense. This kind of leads into my second issue —
Christianity isn’t universal enough. It is VERY jewish. Even the restored stuff, that is supposed to predate Abraham, really seem Jewish. I know that mormons love to find Christ correlations in the creation myths of other faiths, but really – If you look at Indian or Chinese religion for more than a few moments, you’ll struggle to see anything even remotely related. If I could have a testimony that permitted Christianity being no more true than any other world religion, that would be fine, but faith in Christ is pretty central to getting anything out of Christianity in the first place (see above — no faith in Christ = I’m screwed). So yeah… Another silly example is the idea that Christ is the one savior for ALL of God’s creation. That’s just geocentrism (No! The sun MUST revolve around the earth, right?).
Anyway, I’m hoping to move forward, but I’m not really getting very far
It’s up to you. There have been comments geared towards the meaning of atonement and Jesus and the historicity. You can find some threads under the other forum headers (Books, Spirituality and Gospel Discussion, I think all have a thread or more). Check out my book review of From Jesus to Christianity.
I think most here still are Christians and we do have at least some who are not. I, personally, am a symbolic believer. I consider myself a Christian because the symbolism speaks to me and is useful. I do not (currently) believe that the historical person of Jesus was chosen by us to be killed for our sins.
After my “falling out”, I didn’t know if I believed in God anymore but never lost the knowledge really. It came back slowly and meaningfullly. But my knowing about Jesus? All bets were off. I remember sitting in the bishops office pointing to his picture on the wall telling him it all felt like a myth. And hours laboring over so many questions in my heart. My questions about Jesus were less philosophical though. They were very personal as I needed to understand the healing parts of the atonement. After lots of consideration, I decided to open my heart to the possibility of Jesus, trusting the words of the scriptures that once meant so much to me, and slowly my inner knowing about the reality of Jesus started to come to me. And now, I can’t say that I don’t know if Jesus is real. If I did it would be a defiant denial. So…..instead of questioning anymore, I am trying to build on it so that my testimony can increase in the best sorts of ways. I can’t tell you exactly how the knowledge came. It seems a little bit at a time and almost without me noticing when. But then I looked and it was there and then there was some measure of peace in my mind and trust in my thoughts. And at this point, I do believe in a literal person named Jesus who walked the earth and paid literally to free us from sin and death. I don’t find meaning in a figurative Jesus. I have tried to think about it that way and it just doesn’t work for me.
One thing I love about the restored gospel is the way that it defines whose right about religion. I mean JSmith said to find truth wherever it is to be found. We invite people to bring their truth with them. He also explained that Mohommad and others were inspired. I also think its interesting that the three major religions (Judiasm, Christianity, and Muslim) came from the same little Abrahamic family. It’s also important that tribes were scattered. I wonder if they took peices of truth with them. I also think its important, not that I understand everything, that God did give lower laws because the Israelites, for example, weren’t ready for more. But in the restoration we learn that there is more….a lot more. And I think its a blessing that this gospel allows for us to bring truths in from lots of sources. And I love the peeks in the scriptures that tell us that there are more people who had a visit from Jesus (lost tribes of Israel, not just tribe of Judah) and wrote about it and that someday we will get their records.
And I love that we are taught to live by the spirit. Not just to follow cause someone says too or even because its who we are because of birth. I like living by the spirit this way. You can read anything and discern the truth of it. It’s a wonderful way to absorb the things presented by the earth and mysteries of God too.
Embwbam, you and I are coming from similar viewpoints, I think. When I doubted the Church, I threw God out with it, Christianity or otherwise – just all of it. I’m still not entirely sure what’s truth, but I’m working up from a foundation of basically nothing. (Not a bad place to start, in my opinion). The Jesus question was huge for me – one person said it this way: “If I can forgive my neighbour without shedding blood, why can’t God?” My answer to that one goes hand-in-hand with my answer to the second one, so I’ll start there… embwbam wrote:
Christianity isn’t universal enough. It is VERY jewish. […] If I could have a testimony that permitted Christianity being no more true than any other world religion, that would be fine, but faith in Christ is pretty central to getting anything out of Christianity in the first place (see above — no faith in Christ = I’m screwed). So yeah… Another silly example is the idea that Christ is the one savior for ALL of God’s creation. That’s just geocentrism (No! The sun MUST revolve around the earth, right?).Can Jesus be the only way? Out of all the ways offered out there, Jesus is the only one? – Here’s a good comparison that I heard someone give: Imagine that you’re sitting in the park with your daughter, and a man comes up to you and asks “Are you the father of this child?” You reply, “Yes I am.” The man scoffs skeptically and remarks, “Out of all the billions of men on this planet, you mean to tell me that you claim to be THE exclusive father of this child? How arrogant.” The man then slaps you across the face and walks away. You stare, bemused, wondering what you said wrong.
The point is that just as it’s not arrogant to assert that you are the sole father of a child, it is not arrogant for Jesus to assert that he is the only way to God. This helps if you have the understanding that Jesus IS God, as was hashed out in another thread, because then Jesus is simply saying “As I am God, I am the only way to get to God…” If you want to get to know me, go directly to me. Don’t go to Steve to get to know me… Steve’s a nice guy, but you might as well go to the source. That’s why it makes sense to me for Jesus to say that no one gets to God except through him. No one knows me until they get to know me…
That brings us to your first point, about Jesus. To me, this one also comes back to an understanding on the nature of God. Rather than a lofty God saying “Something must die in order for me to forgive sin”, a loving God is saying “I love my creation so much that I am willing to take upon human flesh, walk among my creation and suffer the worst that mortality has to offer.”
Vicarious atonement still doesn’t make the most sense to me. But I can say that I no longer view it as a cruel blood sacrifice demanded for no apparent reason. It’s too easy for us to brush it off as an example of extremely misguided superstition applied to the tragic story of a man who died 2000 years ago. It’s love, it’s self-sacrifice, and people’s lives have been changed because of it.
It only makes sense that God would be perfectly capable of just saying, “I forgive you,” and putting off the whole cross rigamarole. But that just places him on a throne, dictating who passes and who fails. He seemed to want to be more involved than that, bringing himself into his own creation, “a little lower than the angels”, in order to reconcile us to him. Not only is he willing to forgive us, but he is willing to bare the punishment for OUR wrongs. Now that is my kind of God. I hope those thoughts help.
Mapleleaf, your answer was particularly helpful. Thanks you hit my concerns on the head. Man, listening to you guys really makes me realize that I just need to let go and have faith again. It’s like you said, Poppyseed – I have to open my heart. My concerns kind of pale when you all talk about your faith. That’s a good thing
Mapleleaf I like your thoughts!
We need Jesus because God himself is unknowable and unreachable. I believe he sent Jesus as a way for us to know him. MapleLeaf wrote:“As I am God, I am the only way to get to God…” If you want to get to know me, go directly to me. Don’t go to Steve to get to know me… Steve’s a nice guy, but you might as well go to the source. That’s why it makes sense to me for Jesus to say that no one gets to God except through him. No one knows me until they get to know me…
Image God as being the sun in the sky. We can never really get to know the sun in a personal way because it is too hot and too powerful to get close to. Jesus is like a mirror. A mirror on the Earth, reflecting the sun in the sky. This explains why he often referred to Himself as God. He was a perfect reflection of that sun, and through getting close to him we are able to better know God. It is the only way really.
I happen to believe that there were others sent to this Earth to also mirror God, in times and places where God was needed. Each serving a different purpose depending on what the people of that day needed most to progress, but ultimately serving the purpose of bringing the people closer to God. This, to me, explains why we have so many different, but wonderful faiths throughout the world.
I agree. Really great thoughts, Maple. Embwbam, 1. Welcome again.
2. I am with you. Perish the thought that the Father needs an excuse to love and forgive his children.
3. I am a believer. Not so much a mercy/justice Christian, but definitely a believer.
4. Good question. I guess we get to create our own answer. So what’s your answer?
Great questions!! For what it is worth, my thoughts on some of these questions you ask is that trying to figure out “why” God does things a certain way has been difficult for me to get very far on.
Instead, I kind of realize that things could be done in any number of ways…so one is as good as another. A savior who is tortured and killed for my sins is one way it could be done. It could be done other ways too, conceivably.
Rather than “why” it is done that way, or “why” Christianity is taught as the way when that seems to exclude such a large population…I guess I just focus on what it means to me.
God could just save us all…but that would take away opportunities for experiences (actually, that sounds more like Lucifer’s plan). There is an opportunity for Christ to experience things, and so God can step back and allow us to be more involved in things and experience things (good or bad). It is the experience we get, more so than a result, that I value.
That is just one view. Most importantly to me, it is one lesson I can learn about how I should be a father, and let my kids experience things…not try to control them or save them from themselves and making stupid choices…just let them experience things and love them no matter what and teach them as best I can. That is one lesson I learn from the way we are taught the plan of salvation.
I believe God speaks to us (or we hear and/or feel God) in our own language according to our own understanding. I believe Christianity (and Buddhism and Islam and Shintoism and Judaism ad infinitum) are necessary simply because they are expressions of what has resonated with millions of people. They are inevitable. They simply are. Fighting the inevitable is something I’ve chosen not to do. Rather, I construct my own view of God within the broad parameters of what resonates for me (Christianity) – and the saving grace of Mormonism is that I am able to incorprate ANY good I find ANYWHERE into what I view as pure Mormonism. I like something from Buddhism and want to think of Nirvana as an expression of the Celestial Kingdom? Fine. I want to view Mother Theresa as a model of love and a saint in every sense of the word and picture meeting her in Heaven? Fine. I want to disregard SOME of the best efforts of former prophets (anciently and in modern times) to make sense of the world around them? Fine. I want to share many common beliefs with those who worship with me weekly but have many unique ones? Fine. Mormonism allows that, even if some members and congregations fight it.
To me, that is “the basics” – that I personally must work out my own salvation and exercise faith that God will not punish me for my best efforts.
MapleLeaf wrote:The point is that just as it’s not arrogant to assert that you are the sole father of a child, it is not arrogant for Jesus to assert that he is the only way to God. This helps if you have the understanding that Jesus IS God, as was hashed out in another thread, because then Jesus is simply saying “As I am God, I am the only way to get to God…” If you want to get to know me, go directly to me.
I really like this, ML!
“New thought” takes it to another level that I find comfort in. (First, what makes this understandable to me is the reason Jesus taught in metaphor so much — to teach principles to an audience that was just “above” their level of understanding, so they could grasp it…without being blatantly heretical) The gnostic gospels emphasize much more the next step…that is that God IS within each of us. IOW, yes, Jesus IS God, and each of us “is God” too. It’s particularly clear in the gospel of Truth, and Mary.
Rix, Am I hearing with you that “the I” is the way, the truth, and the life, and that no man cometh to the Father but by “the me”? To know oneself truly?
Rix wrote:The gnostic gospels emphasize much more the next step…that is that God IS within each of us. IOW, yes, Jesus IS God, and each of us “is God” too. It’s particularly clear in the gospel of Truth, and Mary.
The Gnostic gospels certainly do take it another step, don’t they… lol. Rix and I have gone back and forth extensively on our disagreement on the validity of Gnosticism, so I don’t want to hijack the thread over it. But I couldn’t let the opportunity pass by to address this!
Jesus didn’t claim to be God in the sense that we are all gods deep down inside. He claimed to be God in the Jewish sense that there is one creator (Deut. 6:4) who was prophecied to come down in the flesh (Zechariah 2:10-11, John 1:14) and be “God with us” (Isaiah 7:14, Matt. 1:23). MUCH different from the eastern religious concept.
MapleLeaf wrote:Jesus didn’t claim to be God in the sense that we are all gods deep down inside. He claimed to be God in the Jewish sense that there is one creator (Deut. 6:4) who was prophecied to come down in the flesh (Zechariah 2:10-11, John 1:14) and be “God with us” (Isaiah 7:14, Matt. 1:23). MUCH different from the eastern religious concept.
In your most honorable, but humble, opinion, of course.
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