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February 1, 2010 at 11:35 pm #204731
Anonymous
GuestMy father, a life long receiver of magnanimous callings ie: Stake and Missionary presidents, and now a patriarch calling recently told my brother he was living in sin because he was unable to say that he felt the “burning in his “spirit” about the truth of the BOM. He has repeatedly taught us that to be a true member of the LDS church, in good standing, we needed to have a correct and unwavering testimony in certain principals of the church, including Joseph Smith, BOM, Prophets, and so forth. If this were to be the case in point, how is it that so many members mold the church to fit their lives, and say they are true, good standing members? How can you be a member of the church and not believe or have testimony of Joesph Smith or the BOM? To me, that is comparable to a a person practicing medicine and saying they are a doctor without going to medical school. February 2, 2010 at 12:08 am #227380Anonymous
GuestIt would be nice if there was a “testimony” school (like medical school) we could go to and graduate from so we know if we qualify as good members or not. Without a certificate program like that, I guess I think we all define “true, good standing members” by our own consciences of what we think is good enough.
I respect your father, he sounds like a very accomplished man. But I disagree with his definition and standard, as I think it would disqualify most of the church. Our testimonies change and grow, it isn’t if we “found the right answer” or we haven’t, IMO, it is about moving and growing and experiencing. I was missing the “burning in my spirit” about many things at church for over a year, but I kept studying and searching. This site helped me express my feelings honestly, and I never gave up. Yesterday in church I felt it again…I cried for the first time in over a year. I’m grateful for my journey I’m on, and feel I have a better understanding of all those who go through trials of faith and questions that they lack the burning. The spiritual witnesses come and go, and sometimes go for long periods of time (in my case). It doesn’t make us bad members, especially if we continue to search for the lessons we need to learn by different events in our lives.
Clearly, we’re all sick and need the physician (the Lord) to give us any hope of being good. I think the Lord knows those that are trying are good enough, even though we’re all not perfect yet. I’m glad I let myself doubt all things, I feel it has made me a better member than I was a year and a half ago.
February 2, 2010 at 1:00 am #227381Anonymous
GuestWith all due respect to your father, and I really mean that. He deserves respect for such a wonderful life of service. I quote the following lines from a brother that “outranks” him
Quote:“For you members of the Church who hold back because of feelings of inadequacy, I plead with you to step forward, put your shoulder to the wheel, and push. Even when you feel that your strength can add little, the Church needs you. The Lord needs you. Remember that the Lord often chooses “the weak things of the world” to accomplish His purposes
-Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, “Concern for the One,” April 2008 ConferenceI think Elder Wirthlin would disagree with the assessment that someone can not be a member and sometimes have doubts or feel inadequate in their testimony. The Lord is more interested in having friends pitch in and help, more than the perfection of their situation. An imperfect servant that tries is much more effective than another servant who waits and waits until they are perfect to join in the work.
As to having a perfect testimony, I would hope your brother still feels welcome among the rest of us imperfect souls:
Quote:“The Church is not a place where perfect people gather to say perfect things, or have perfect thoughts, or have perfect feelings. The Church is a place where imperfect people gather to provide encouragement, support, and service to each other as we press on in our journey to return to our Heavenly Father.
Each one of us will travel a different road during this life. Each progresses at a different rate. Temptations that trouble your brother may not challenge you at all. Strengths that you possess may seem impossible to another.”
-Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, “The Virtue of Kindness,” Ensign, May 2005February 2, 2010 at 4:41 am #227382Anonymous
GuestIt is all about choice. I don’t believe that testimonies like your father described exist. Testimonies are formed because we have a spiritual experience and choose some interpretation of it. We can feel something while we’re reading the BoM and we choose to interpret that feeling as the BoM is of God or true or whatever. That’s how testimonies are formed. And we can choose to accept things without spiritual experiences. A testimony is just the compilation of all of these things we choose to believe. The problem arises when people don’t realize that they are choosing the interpretations of their experiences and they accredit their interpretation to God pouring knowledge into their brain. An unwavering testimony cannot exist. I don’t believe God speaks directly to people in some incontrovertible way. If there was no room to doubt then no faith would be required. Understanding that we have chosen our beliefs can be scary for many but with some time I think it is very empowering.
February 2, 2010 at 6:01 am #227383Anonymous
GuestHeber13 wrote:I was missing the “burning in my spirit” about many things at church for over a year, but I kept studying and searching. This site helped me express my feelings honestly, and I never gave up. Yesterday in church I felt it again…I cried for the first time in over a year. I’m grateful for my journey I’m on, and feel I have a better understanding of all those who go through trials of faith and questions that they lack the burning. The spiritual witnesses come and go, and sometimes go for long periods of time (in my case). It doesn’t make us bad members, especially if we continue to search for the lessons we need to learn by different events in our lives.
Clearly, we’re all sick and need the physician (the Lord) to give us any hope of being good. I think the Lord knows those that are trying are good enough, even though we’re all not perfect yet. I’m glad I let myself doubt all things, I feel it has made me a better member than I was a year and a half ago.
Heber, I’m so happy for you! Amen, and amen.
God made us this way and saw that it was good.
February 2, 2010 at 7:25 am #227384Anonymous
Guestnightwalden wrote:If there was no room to doubt then no faith would be required.
This is a beautiful concept, night! That we can all understand the ramifications of it’s beauty!
February 3, 2010 at 2:40 am #227386Anonymous
GuestI’m going to attempt a different take on the question: Emma11 wrote:How can you be a member of the church and not believe or have testimony of Joesph Smith or the BOM? To me, that is comparable to a a person practicing medicine and saying they are a doctor without going to medical school.
Please excuse how this may sound sarcastic or flippant and stay with me to the point (the goal is to be direct, not at all rude): Quite frankly if someone is baptized, they are a member of the church. Sometimes people find that their personal expectations don’t align with reality, and the result can be a traumatic and confusing state of disorientation.
Let me try to explain.
People, for the most part, are only capable of seeing what fits into their “paradigm” or “world view.” When they come across data that doesn’t fit – it’s usually discarded. Occasionally, an event may happen that forces someone into a “reality” that they never fully considered before. This type of occurrence is usually traumatic and disorienting.
One example:
A parent suddenly loses a child. We can all understand the type of pain this causes. Parents never expect to outlive their children. Yes, the pain is more complex than simply the missed expectation – but I think as a whole it’s a good analogy to a faith crisis. People are deeply attached to their faith, it’s a part of them, living with any type of significant adjustment in this area is often unthinkable.
What initiates the crisis, like I said, is a PERSONAL expectation that does not line up with reality. Because it is personal it often doesn’t make sense to outside observers. It could be something as simple as a belief that Joseph Smith would never drink wine. (Not intending to trivialize any personal concerns.) When a personal belief is used as a foundation for other beliefs, everything that is “built upon” it is in danger of falling if the underlying belief is shaken.
The point:
I would liken this occurrence to a doctor from one country suddenly transported to a different country where he has no valid medical license. True, he cannot legally practice medicine. …does that mean he is not really a doctor? Is the best course of action to throw his hands up in the air and say: “I give up, I can’t really help anyone anyway. I should just go dig ditches”?
Not to make light of your question, I think it’s a great question that the broader church membership could spend more time considering. I think the previous replies on this thread all make great points. The church is “in business” to deal with people, it only makes sense that a certain amount of understanding and flexibility should be a part of that business. God bless Elder Wirthlin and all the charitable members of this church! In my opinion the strict conformist attitudes in the church (often from very good well meaning people) are the result of tradition and not gospel. Love is the Law.
Thanks for a thought provoking question!
February 3, 2010 at 4:32 am #227387Anonymous
GuestYou could just quote some scripture to him. Quote:13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to abelieve on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
D&C 46 13:14
February 3, 2010 at 4:17 pm #227385Anonymous
Guestand if it’s ok to not “know” that Jesus is the Christ, I’m positive it’s ok to not “know” anything else. Don’t get me wrong: I’ve had experiences that lead me to be totally comfortable saying “I know . . .” – but that’s within the context of what that means to me and many other members, not as being 100% certain that my understanding won’t change as time goes on. For example, I can say without hesitation that I know God lives – but I’m not about to say that I know everything about God. I am convinced that life goes on past death, but I am not about to say I am convinced I know what that life will be like in detail.
It’s ok not to “know” – so, yes, imho, your father is wrong. Fortunately, I’ve never heard that message from anyone over the pulpit at General Conference – and, frankly, if I did, I would write it off as one person’s opinion that is not supported by “the voice of my servants” (collective singular).
February 3, 2010 at 7:32 pm #227388Anonymous
GuestMy husband joined the church on an intellectual testimony hoping the spiritual one would come. After 30 years of praying, fasting, and studying the BofM and testing Moroni’s promise, it did not come. When I asked the Lord why, he told me that he was withheld it for a reason. 3 Nephi 9:20 says ” ….even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not.” Judging a person is a much worse sin to me. -
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