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A couple of weeks ago, we had a speaker in sacrament meeting whose topic was ‘God’s love for us’. She’s a wonderful, talented, beautiful woman with a lovely young family who gave a very nice talk. The gist of the argument though went like this: I know God loves me, because he has blessed me with so many things; wonderful husband, good health, talents, jobs, beautiful children, worldly blessing, etc . . . . I hear this a lot in the church. I understand the sentiment. I know the importance of feeling gratitude and know that I have a lot of blessings in my life too.
As I sat on the stand (I’m the chorister) and looked out over the congregation, and thought of some of the problems that I know exist in the ward, I couldn’t help but wonder how those members who have severe problems felt. The mirror image and logical counterpart of her argument is that absence of those blessings must mean that God doesn’t love those people as much. What about the kid that being abused, or the person with cancer or a long-term disability, the single mom, etc. . . . And what about those poor people, and there are billions of them around the world who have very few of the blessings she described. How do they know God loves them?
I know that there’s the longer term argument, that we have blessings of the ‘plan’ and the Atonement and eternal life, but to quote a friend of mine, I’m to the point in life where I’m just trying to get through the day. My wife has a mental health problem that is severe, chronic and really controls our lives. Frankly, I’ve really come to struggle with this idea of an active, loving, interative Father in Heaven. It really feels more to me like we’re mostly on our own.
I’m interested in your view points. How can we really know that God loves us?
I agree with much of what you wrote, ss. I also cringe when people talk in ways that echo the “prosperity Gospel”. I’ve always read the “obey and prosper” ideology as applying to groups / communities / nations / etc. – not to individuals. I just don’t see how it can apply to individuals . . . since it doesn’t in real life. 
As for how we can know God loves us, that’s something I think we individually have to see and feel and experience for ourselves. In my own case, I can point to specific times when I truly feel like God has reached into my life and made himself manifest – understanding that my choice of words to describe those experiences is slanted from the descriptions of my upbringing. There are certain things I’ve experienced that I simply can’t ascribe to anything other than God – or, more generically, the divine outside mortal understanding. Those experiences have not been ones where I was slapped around indifferently, so I interpret them as evidence of God’s love.
How do I justify that or explain it when others are sold into slavery and prostitution as children – or suffer greatly and die of AIDS through no fault of their own – or are abused throughout their lives by someone close to them – or are raised in any environment of terror and/or deprivation? I really can’t – because I understand both experiences and have no idea, ultimately, why mine are mine and others’ are others’. I don’t know – so I am left with the classic definition of faith – the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Old-Timer wrote:“prosperity Gospel”
Ooh, yes. Definitely one of my buttons.
Old-Timer wrote:I just don’t see how it can apply to individuals . . . since it doesn’t in real life.
I love it. A reality guy. Ditto, ditto, ditto.
I struggle with this now more than ever before. My journey has made me more concerned and aware of the people outside my own community. If God’s love for us is only proved by “blessings” what does that say about the people in Haiti? Did God not love them?
What did I ever do to “deserve” being born in this place at this time to a pretty decent middle class family? Nothing. What did the little AIDS baby in Africa do to be bron into that situation? Nothing.
I guess this is a big part of why I have moved towards a belief that the Divine is within and throughout (and beyond) all creation. Just experiencing all there is to experience. Not a man in the sky imparting blessing to his favorites and horrors to those he hates.
God, the Divine, is within. We are the manifestations of the Divine. When we serve one another we are literally serving God. To see the face of God….I think it might be easier than anyone ever imagined. Maybe as we love and show love and are filled with love we can *know* that God loves us. Because it truly is God loving us.
I don’t really know anything anymore. So take it for what it’s worth. My struggle and attempt to understand the incomprehensible.
It’s funny how I smugly knew all the answers to these questions 30 years ago as a 19 year old missionary. But, the idea of “prosperity Gospel” is taught constantly at every level in our church. We are taught that the result of our obedience to anything is a particular blessing. We are not taught that obedience will ameliorate our troubles, but certainly that it will bring us some kind of blessing. My parents were told that having a missionary out would bring them great blessings. It brought my mother severe stress, depression, and poor health. It brought my father not enough income to keep the house, forcing them to sell and rent for many subsequent years. Were there blessings too? I’m sure there were, but I’m also sure my parents were not looking forward to my brother going out on a mission a few years later. They learned that bad things happen when you send out a missionary. In the church, we are taught directly and indirectly that obedience and individual prosperity are positively correlated. We USED to be taught indirectly that our station in life NOW is somehow related to valience in the pre-existence, but I don’t hear that dogma preached much anymore. I remember, as a youth, hearing the idea that black people were black because they were pre-mortal “fence-sitters” who just couldn’t decide until the last minute which plan to follow. Even then, the idea didn’t sit well with me, but helped me justify in my own small mind, why they couldn’t receive the priesthood at the time. I remember being happy hearing about the revelation that allowed the priesthood to be given to all worthy male members. Will we ever hear a revelation that the priesthood can also be given to worthy hermaphrodites?
I have another question regarding obedience and prosperity. Is it true? Is it true WITHIN the church that there is a significant positive correlation between obedience to church directives and financial prosperity? I’m not for a minute trying to justify the dogma, but wondering if there is any real correlation. We all have anecdotal examples of completely obedient poor church mice and completely disobedient richy richers, but what does the data show about members in general? Does anyone know?
Cnsl1 wrote:I have another question regarding obedience and prosperity. Is it true? Is it true WITHIN the church that there is a significant positive correlation between obedience to church directives and financial prosperity?
Now that is an interesting question! Almost it’s a trick question, because the real answer almost unavoidable is an least in some way an indictment of the church. In my opinion, if you preach the prosperity gospel, you will foster prosperity. After all, you get what you seek. The trouble with that is that prosperity isn’t nirvana/heaven/enlightenment/fulfillment. So if I answer you that, yes, LDS obedient tend to prosper personally, I am kind of giving a back-handed compliment to the church. And to be honest about it, I have to say it; we do prosper personally. The LDS are largely an obedient and a believing people. And we largely believe
after you obtain a hope in Christ you will seek riches for the intent to do good. It’s in our scriptures, it’s in our hearts, it’s in our hierarchy, and it’s in our fruit. I honestly don’t know how to even begin cleaning it up. It’s that fundamentally endemic. All the studies I have seen make it clear that the LDS Church membership as a whole is one of the best educated, most financially well off of any Christian denomination. That’s not a boast. It’s not good or bad, imo – except to be good in the sense that it enables the Church membership as a whole to give enough to self-perpetuate. That’s a good thing. However, general prosperity can lead to pride and a focus on money – and our canonized scriptures are replete with examples of what can happen to communities in that condition.
As I have said in numerous settings, I actually do believe in the general concept of communal prosperity through dedication, hard work and “goodness”. It’s when that general prosperity gets conflated with individual prosperity, and when individual wealth and individual poverty become markers of worthiness and goodness that it becomes a problem – and, unfortunately, that is a very natural human tendency in all communities and groups.
Professional athletes are admired and revered by many. Why? They are rich. Movie stars are admired and revered by many. Why? They are rich. Business tycoons are admired and revered by many. Why? They are rich. At least in the Church, many local leaders (and GA’s, for that matter) are not rich – so that should mitigate the natural tendency. It does for many, but it doesn’t for others. That’s not an indictment of the Church, imo, but rather a statement about how strong our natural tendencies are.
I get concerned, because most of the mission presidents now are young and rich, by definition. And we pretty much have hero worship for them. The same is true for a lot of GAs, and their success plays into our view (as a whole) of their righteousness and ‘blessedness’.
silentstruggle wrote:The same is true for a lot of GAs, and their success plays into our view (as a whole) of their righteousness and ‘blessedness’.
But it’s not just a tradition. It’s our gospel. “Ye will seek riches with the intent to do good.” That’s what we honestly believe. We believe in the efficacy of riches. There is, in my opinion, no way around it the way we read the Book of Mormon.
I guess I’m not the only one who cringes when I hear people talk about this “prosperity gospel” (excellent term, I’m glad I can add that one to my vocabulary now). Like you, I was taught my entire life about how blessed my family was because we were all happy, healthy, and intelligent people. Eventually, some people grow beyond this Rameumptum -type testimony of thanking God for loving us more than the poor as evidenced by the wealth we enjoy. Sadly, many people do not. So when the random selection of disaster comes knocking on their doors as it has in Haiti, New Orleans, Malaysia, and soon to be Hawaii, when their turn comes up, they wonder if maybe there was something they did wrong that made God stop loving them. When we read the book of Job, we read about a man, either literal or fable, who God clearly loved, and when this man had done no wrong, disaster struck, and it struck with a mighty blow. He lost everything, his family, his wealth, even his health and his friends. He refused to curse God in the midst of all that, and trusted that God loved him, and when he was ready to lay down and give up the ghost, a miracle happened. He was healed, he got a new family, and even more riches. Job is an excellent lesson that many people know about in the back of their minds, but few actually understand the example this story sets for us. I have never actually heard of anyone being struck down by God for any kind of sin, whether it be blasphemy or telling an inappropriate joke or whatever. But I hear it all the time, people saying thinks like, “ooh, I’d better back away from you, I don’t want to get struck by lightning.” or “You are going to get struck down for saying that.” I’ve come to the conclusion that God doesn’t have all the petty human weaknesses that he has been painted with in the Old Testament. God does love His children, or at least that makes people feel good to believe. It is altogether possible that God is actually indifferent to us, but I digress. By telling people that God doesn’t love them anymore because of their sins, it does nothing to ease their pain or their burdens they carry. I don’t know if you feel the need for God’s love in your life, but I focus more on helping others to feel the love of God in their lives. Sometimes I do feel the need to have God’s love, and sometimes I feel completely burdened and alone. But this always passes, just as everything else that comes and goes throughout my life. I’m not always happy, nor always sad, nor always angry, nor always empathetic. I am human, and subject to changing emotions. My little dissertation may or may not help anyone, but I’m submitting it anyways.
I appreciate your post, Maverick.
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