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So, I read an interesting article this week. It’s not spiritual in nature, but very interesting. It’s about the possibilities of cloning a Neanderthal using a decoded genome, and the associated moral and ethical implications. It may be a bit far-fetched and sensationalistic, but maybe not. Here’s the link: http:
//www.archaeology.org/1003/etc/neanderthals.html//www.archaeology.org/1003/etc/neanderthals.html” class=”bbcode_url”> So, I mentioned this on my afternoon walk with my Mormon friends, and the ensuing discussion killed me:
1) Ignorance. They were unaware that Neanderthals were a different species, when they lived, where they lived. If it was just one subject, I would say okay, I’m the odd one, but really it’s anything outside the purview of Mormonism. There’s only time to read the Book of Mormon I guess. Actually, one guy in my ward quoted his wife as saying, ‘If it doesn’t have to do with salvation, I don’t want to hear about it.’
2) On top of the ignorance, every discussion topic has to get plugged into the Mormon/biblical framework. These guys immediately tried to put it into a biblical timeframe, of course evolution can’t be part of it, and then the discussion was about the salvation/accountability of neanderthal’s. One of guys guys in particular goes through great mental gyrations to make things fit his scriptural understanding. He once told me that God had wiped all archeological evidence of Book of Mormon peoples off of the earth for a test of our faith. (I’m thinking, yeah, just like he did in the Holy Land.)
Their heads about exploded when I told them that there are some scientists who think that we (homo sapiens) are carrying some Neanderthal genes.
How can I talk to these people? Virtually every non-church topic ends up like this.
I guess it just goes to show you can’t talk about everything with everyone. You know the old saying – steer clear of religion and politics. As far as “biblical timeline”, I know there is an assumed time frame that corresponds with a “young earth” theory. But not every Mormon agrees with it. I really appreciated some of the points brought out in the book “Mormon Scientist” about Pres. Eyring’s father.
I think relatively few American Mormons believe in the young earth theory with all its implications. You really can’t talk with very many people about religion and politics openly and broadly – inside or outside the LDS Church. It wasn’t any better for me at a “liberal” college, in the Deep South, in suburban Midwest or rural Midwest. It just is what it is.
Yeah, you just can’t really talk about every subject openly with all people. The best we can do is try to understand people and be aware of their ideas. The best option is to seek out people who
arecomfortable talking about controversial ideas you are interested in kicking around for debate. You can talk about that topic here without blowing any minds 
I personally like having my ideas challenged. It feels like a good stretch, like how friends of mine describe a good workout at the gym.
Wise thoughts. Thanks. I sometimes think, ‘If only I didn’t live in Utah’, but it sounds like humans are humans everywhere. Well, unless they succeed at cloning Neanderthals. 
The challenge many believers have is that they are perfectly willing to replace empirical evidence with an emotional state. Such as I have seen dinosaur fossils but that does not jive with my emotional state of belief so therefore they did not exist or at minimum I am not suppose to understand their relevance at this point. When individuals take this approach there really is no argument you can make to make them see reality. The emotional state will always and easily replace the evidence and reality. Cadence wrote:Such as I have seen dinosaur fossils but that does not jive with my emotional state of belief so therefore they did not exist or at minimum I am not suppose to understand their relevance at this point.
Ha! My father-in-law says that their were no dinosaurs on the Earth. The reason for the fossils is because the Earth was created from land masses of other worlds that did have dinos! Gotta love it!
And they just happened to be in ordered layers that are evolutionary agreement around the whole earth. Love it. Last year, I went to see an enactment of the ‘Snopes Monkey Trial’ with Ed Asner. It was awesome. The battle does rage on.
You can lead a Mormon to science, but you can’t make him think. “Don’t worry about all that stuff. You think too much. If it were necessary for our salvation, we’d be given that information. God proves scientists wrong all the time. We’re not supposed to know that stuff yet.” Quote:You can lead a Mormon to science, but you can’t make him think.
For the record, that is a gross over-statement. It’s true of many humans world-wide.
Quote:“God proves scientists wrong all the time.”
I’ve heard different versions of that in MANY areas, and I’ve heard it more outside the LDS Church than inside it. I also have never heard it preached from the General Conference pulpit in my lifetime.
Quote:“Don’t worry about all that stuff. You think too much. If it were necessary for our salvation, we’d be given that information. We’re not supposed to know that stuff yet.”
There’s both truth and error in each of those sentences. We need to be very careful of broad generalities that really are both true and false, depending on individual circumstances and usage.
And then there is the idea that the fossil record, which amounts to about 2 pieces in a thousand piece jigsaw puzzle, is simply the remnants of a former creation. Good luck trying to find a “scientist” that will agree with that…I don’t blame them actually, the fossil record is all they have so they have to try (rather successfully if you go in any college classroom) to make it worth much more than it actually is. Yes…you can talk to “these people”.
I am one…..talk away.
The problem will occur when you try to flaunt science as truth. It’s just conclusions based on observations. The fossil record is miniscule. Professors can’t admit that, of course.
If someone feels confident in guessing the whole thousand-piece jigsaw puzzle after observing 2 pieces, go for it….many do it everyday and are rewarded degrees in anthropology.
That’s ok as long as one doesn’t get so pompous as to think that his/her observation of those 2 puzzle pieces is somehow “intelligent” and others are just ignorant.
Good point, Bruce. Even as we criticize those who are certain, and even as we talk about nuances and moving through stages of faith, we still tend to speak in condescending tones when we speak of those things of which we, ourselves, feel certain. It’s good to be reminded of that natural hypocrisy occasionally.
It is good to see you, Bruce. I recently was wondering how you are doing. Tom
Those previous sentences were statements I’ve heard throughout my life. The one that used to most irritate me was “we’re not supposed to know….”, even though I have used that cliche in my life. It really didn’t matter to me if we were or were not “supposed” to know. I wanted to know and that’s what mattered to me. Such statements don’t bother me much anymore, obviously, even when spouted from the pulpit. Granted, these aren’t the kinds of things I have heard regularly from GC pulpit, but certainly more than twice in Stake Conf, Ward Conf, and particularly SS class.
I don’t think it’s a matter of cricitizing those who are certain, however. Voltaire notwithstanding, there is some comfort and security in certainty and us of all people possibly wish we had a little of that feeling of certainty back. It’s the irritation arising from the feeling of having a blanket put over your head by a person who acts as if they are afraid of your questions.
Adapting belief system to fit the data (including emotions, promptings, personal revelation) may not be in the repretoire of many people. And, that’s okay so long as I can keep their comforter off my head.
I like pie.
flowerdrops wrote:
Ha! My father-in-law says that their were no dinosaurs on the Earth. The reason for the fossils is because the Earth was created from land masses of other worlds that did have dinos! Gotta love it!That’s actually how I used to justify my LDS beliefs with modern science! A Sunday school teacher actually first presented the idea, and it seemed to fit. There’s already an LDS doctrine which says that God used existing materials to organize not only our spirits but the world(s). So it’s only a short step away from the conclusion that God organized our earth from previous earth-like planet prototypes.
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