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I’ve been thinking about this for a week or so, especially after some of the comments from the MormonThinkand Being Honest With Myselfand other recent threads. It seems like there are a handful of long time participants here who perhaps have, or are currently, moving into a poststayLDS phase of life. What really is the purpose of this site?When are we no longer welcome here?When staylds members cannot honestly comment and speak frankly about the issues, and cannot voice opinion, because of the mission to help stay LDS…is it right to just be quiet because it might hurt someone elses faith on the site? At stayLDS, is it more important to defend the church, be loyal to the church, or speak up and voice opinion even if it goes against the church and makes the leadership look bad? I understand that many church leaders lurk here…so I am asking an honest question.
If one is negative and has ill feelings about the church leadership, and have come to the determine that the church is “not true” and that they no longer want to be part of it, should they hang out here on this site, just because they have LDS friends and family members, and they are “friends” and comfortable with the group participants at StayLDS?
As much I disagreed with John Larsen, at least he bailed when he realized he no longer had the least amount of faith in the church…and he decided to move on and find other groups and topics to focus on. I think one has to recognize and acknowledge his integrity in doing so.
And perhaps most importantly…when you wear out your welcome, where do we go from here?
I enjoy this site and the folks here. I like the positive discussions, for the most part…until I see myself and others denying the logic and using mental gymnastics to protect the church…and the mission of the of the stayLDS site. But the fact is, myself, and many others here, are mostly emotionally disengaged from the church. I find it more difficult everyday to comment here in the discussion, in a way that would be honest and still be perceived as posititve and stayLDS.
I would hate to see stayLDS become a place like NOM, where you get groups of posters who have resigned from the church, and who are in your face outspoken atheists, and utterly fail to follow the mission of the site… but for whatever reason cannot and will not leave. I do not think that should happen. But, where do we go now?
So my final question, which I hope to focus this thread on,
WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?What sites and forums have you found, that will replace this community? Are there any forums where you get honesty, without hostility and contention and flaming antimormons and flaming mopologetic TBMs? What are are our options now? Thanks.
Chad Waldron
Bend Oregon Stake
Where would someone go from here? I think a few places — talk to people via email with whome you’ve made a connection in a less structured format. Certain relationships go deeper than others, and private email discussions allow a level of freedom that you don’t find anywhere else.
The idea of a by-invitation forum might also work, if someone has the gumption and time to found and manage one. I’m not sure ifblogs like WordPress or Blogspot allow this, but that is another possibility.
However, if your LDS experience is local and face-to-face, and subsequently, don’t have an internet discussion group, you might find that your experience becomes largely internal, and increases your dependence on your personal relationship with God. I still take comfort from that relationship, and more in times of alienation.
And you can look at the absence of a community to belong to as a great loss, as I would. But also as an opportunity to perhaps focus life on
doingrather than thinking and writing. Look at the time saved from posting as time to be invested in other pursuits that make you happy. Experiment and see if the absence of an online community might actually invoke Alma 32 and provide a more peaceful perspective on life. While StayLDS has been the consistently most positive experience in my life for over three years, I wonder if absence from it will allow the positives of life as a MOrmon to water the tree of inner peace more freely. And at the same time, I think we need to recognize that mission statements only have life when they are enforced…people may not agree on how a misson is brought to life, but ultimately, it’s the visionaries choice how to implement that vision. Truly inspired visionaries will include the perspective of the people in their target group — so it’s not all about the visionary — it’s about everyone. But ultimately, visionaries need to decide how to proceed, how to mediate between principles, and the life-altering experiences that people bring to the table. Life-altering experiences that put them off-center or in perceived violation of the visionaries vision of how those principles should be enacted.
Most of all, judgment, forgiveness, putting relationships ahead of individual needs where possible — all these things create a vibrant forum where people are more likely to stay — even though their ideas are divergent from the mission and norm. Posters make mistakes, and so do moderators make errors in judgment, and then they both learn from them. What happens here will likely not matter in 5 years, but the learning may well be eternal if it’s powerful.
And in the end, I think it’s the nature of relationships to form, deepen, and then fade. Ultimately, inner peace is found within, not in internet discussion forums. Such forums are only useful to the extent the blend of our dark glasses and the views of thers are helpful, and not a hindrance.
My hope is that members and moderators and deregistrants will all be open enough to welcome each other back into their minds and hearts and internet social networks at any time — as either party reflects and changes their mind. I know I would, and I trust STayLDS has the same mentality, as the quality of interaction, kindness and Christlike behavior of members and moderators alike has been far above what I saw in the one other forum I was heavily invested in until about a year ago.
These comments are just my stream of conscousness as I’ve been thinking about this topic. They are not directed at anyone so don’t read anything personal into them. And I hope you see I have respect for everyone here in making these statements.
good stuff SD. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
I am not going to be much help on the “what comes after StayLDS” question. But I can say a little on how I personally view StayLDS and it’s mission, when it’s okay and good to stay and when people may be prompted by moderation to move on. StayLDS to me has been a hugely successful lifeline that came at a key point in my life when it was urgently needed. Some of us can quickly determine through the way our personal lives are set up that complete church failure is NOT an option. Trying to make a “clean break” from the church would be about as practical and satisfying as faking your own death and then setting up a new life in some foreign country. For me it’s just not going to happen, my alternatives number a total of one. My choice is to embrace my fate. I am going to stay LDS and make the absolute most of it.
The mission of this site is to help me live my life. My desire is not to “fake it” at church – at least not any more than all members feel they have to portray some form of acceptable image at church. I want to learn how to grow my authentic self, and how to present that authentic self in a way that will not offend my fellow church members.
Things change over time. The church today is not exactly like it was 50 and 100 years ago. I expect there will be further change within my lifetime, but I can’t hold out on my personal contributions until I’m satisfied with the way everything else around me is working. Some people may not be able to accept the present circumstances, my circumstances are not entirely my choice. These are the tools that I have in my possession today, I’m going to work. If fully free speech in every relationship of my life doesn’t exist I don’t have the choice to sit on my hands until it comes around. I’m going to start doing something with what I have to work with.
StayLDS is here to share ideas and support around building new and positive connections with the church. Sometimes in supporting each other’s burdens we need to speak our minds. When it moves beyond the point of foundational support toward a pet project or simply voicing our chronic irritations endlessly, we move beyond the realm of personal growth/support into a mud bog where there is no progress. It is good to mention areas of no progress, but obviously it doesn’t help anyone to dwell on them. Personally I don’t recall a lot of discussions here getting “stuck” but obviously there is always that potential.
The book answer to the question “when are we no longer welcome here?” is: When discussions as a rule fail to uphold the StayLDS mission of encouraging and building new and meaningful connections with the church and teachings. Personally I don’t think it’s a very high hurdle to clear. We love questions, with a little effort I think any frustration can be turned into a question instead of a statement — and from there it can become a productive discussion. I can imagine on the other hand someone becoming frustrated to the degree that they are tired of seeking out a new view on an old irritation, on those topics we would ask those individuals to refrain where they see no chance for improvement.
I know this is probably a lot more than what you were looking for, and not “post-StayLDS” …but as I said “post” just doesn’t exist on my personal radar, I don’t know what to do with that.
Best wishes, always.
Quote:What really is the purpose of this site?To help people maintain or re-establish a positive connection to the Mormon faith. I use that phrasing because it includes more than just being an active, fully-believing, TR holding member. Whatever the connection someone wants, at whatever level, even if only to have more kind memories of their past connection, I think we can fit that person in.
Quote:When are we no longer welcome here?You in particular, Cwald, are always welcome in my circle of friends. I wish I could teleport across to the other coast easily so we could hang out at your burn barrel some nights and just rant away.
As for the site, anyone is welcome as long as they can stay inside the boundaries of the mission and rules of etiquette.
Quote:When staylds members cannot honestly comment and speak frankly about the issues, and cannot voice opinion, because of the mission to help stay LDS…is it right to just be quiet because it might hurt someone elses faith on the site? At stayLDS, is it more important to defend the church, be loyal to the church, or speak up and voice opinion even if it goes against the church and makes the leadership look bad? I understand that many church leaders lurk here…so I am asking an honest question.
This is a REALLY tough line to maintain. We walk a razor’s edge. As is described in the community rules, it’s OK to express disappointment and to some extent even anger … BUT … the conversation has to be able to move towards solutions or resolutions. This is a support community with a purpose. If we let it drift from that, it quickly turns into another platform for the purging of negative energy — a rant fest. There are incredibly important sites out there that fill that function. I personally believe places like RfM, Post-Mormon and others serve an important function in that regard. We don’t want to compete with that. They do a great job already. Plus, I feel from long experience that you can’t mix extremes that are too far apart in the faith spectrum. One or the other gets chased out, and the community fails.
I am personally more post-Mormon than the other moderators who help run this site, but I still feel
verystrongly about the site mission. Quote:If one is negative and has ill feelings about the church leadership, and have come to the determine that the church is “not true” and that they no longer want to be part of it, should they hang out here on this site, just because they have LDS friends and family members, and they are “friends” and comfortable with the group participants at StayLDS?
Yes. If they want to figure out how to maintain some type of positive connection to their Mormon faith. OR if they want to help others figure out how to do that.
Quote:As much I disagreed with John Larsen, at least he bailed when he realized he no longer had the least amount of faith in the church…and he decided to move on and find other groups and topics to focus on. I think one has to recognize and acknowledge his integrity in doing so.
I acknowledge both his integrity AND his
sanity. Integrity is a sticky word, but I think John L. was expressing integrity in a way that was practical and healthy for him. And I absolutely believe it is more sane and healthy to move on in life when the crisis is over. I’m pretty settled and comfortable with my own personal journey. In some ways it’s draining and painful for me to hear the stories of fresh heartache and disappointment, fear of losing family and friends, etc. over and over and over again all the time. I still feel a calling to reach out and help people though. Who knows, maybe I will wear out someday? *shrug* I actually had to stop participating at FacesEast because it just became too much of a heartache being reminding of my own pain. I still help them host their site though. I just can’t read the stories anymore and watch them unfold.
Quote:And perhaps most importantly…when you wear out your welcome, where do we go from here?
I don’t know. There are places to rant and vent. There are places to find more traditional faith. There are other excellent communities that have nothing to do with faith or Mormonism.
Quote:I enjoy this site and the folks here. I like the positive discussions, for the most part…until I see myself and others denying the logic and using mental gymnastics to protect the church…and the mission of the of the stayLDS site.
Everybody’s reasoning and logic is brilliant and perfectly reasonable to them.
🙂 Sometimes faith requires mental gymnastics. *shrug* Sorry, I didn’t make humanity that way. It’s God’s fault. Mental gymnastics help keep us limber and mentally fit. It’s good exercise. Life in general requires some amount of mental gymnastics to navigate it without going postal.Quote:I would hate to see stayLDS become a place like NOM, where you get groups of posters who have resigned from the church, and who are in your face outspoken atheists, and utterly fail to follow the mission of the site… but for whatever reason cannot and will not leave. I do not think that should happen.
I agree. I love NOM too. It’s a wonderful community. I go through periods of activity there. Then after a while I can’t really hang anymore and need to step away from a few months. I love the people there though.
I don’t want this site to drift from its core. Too many other Mormon faith-themed sites have done that.
Quote:So my final question, which I hope to focus this thread on,
WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?What sites and forums have you found, that will replace this community? Are there any forums where you get honesty, without hostility and contention and flaming antimormons and flaming mopologetic TBMs? What are are our options now? I don’t know. I haven’t found any either. I’ve been in several that tried over the years. They all drifted off their mission over time.
I think you make some good points Brian. I can’t help but to think of some of the “old timers” here, folks like SD, Wayfarer, Spock, The DA, doug etc, and ourselves Brian, as stayLDSers who have pretty checked out emotionally and perhaps physically from the game. I have finally come to the conclusion, and gave myself permission to allow myself to admit, that the church is crumbling from the inside and it is in utter apostasy…apostasy…much like the apostasy we read Jesus condemning the Jewish churches and culture for during his lifetime.
Some of you have similar thoughts, or other issues with the church.
So why do we stay here..at a site designed to help people stay in a church that many of us wish we could escape? Even John Dehlin figured that out?
Is it because we are are addicted to the bloggernacle?
Perhaps, for me anyway, as much as I dislike and distrust the LDS church, it’s leadership and it’s entire culture, stayLDS.com is one the few places that still gives me a just a tadbit…just a “little” hope for the mormon church to evolve and correct it’s course before it is too late. BUT maybe even more so than that specifically, stayLDS.com gives me a “little hope” for the mormon people. And I have to be honest in my experience…the Mormon church is NOT true…but, I think the people generally are.
There are some good questions you are asking, cwald. Here are my thoughts as one of the Joe Shmoe’s that volunteers to help moderate on the site…this is how I see it: I don’t share openly very much about my marital situation out of respect for my wife, but I’ll just share that we have boundaries agreed to, one of which is not to talk about StayLDS, or my doubts about church, or negative feelings towards the church. It hurts her deeply to hear it from me. I’ve agreed to honoring that request.
Sometimes I ask myself, is that limiting me from sharing openly how I feel? …Answer: Yes.
Is that fair to me and my needs to express my sincere feelings? …Answer: Yes, it is just as fair as it is for me to set boundaries and ask her to respect them from me. If I NEED to express feelings so I don’t explode…I have other avenues, such as a therapist who can listen in confidence. But if my actions are going to negatively impact her or her feelings, it is not only fair, but charitable, for me to honor the boundaries.
It is not ideal, but it is what we’ve agreed to do. It doesn’t make it right or wrong…it is just an agreement in order to avoid further pain for the moment, and
a choice for me to stick to it or not. cwald wrote:When staylds members cannot honestly comment and speak frankly about the issues, and cannot voice opinion, because of the mission to help stay LDS…is it right to just be quiet because it might hurt someone elses faith on the site?
My answer: Yes, it can be right to be quiet if it hurts others. It is a highly developed response. Hopefully that doesn’t mean you can’t participate at all. Just temper the “speak frankly” with voicing of opinions out of respect for others, as per the site rules of etiquette. Hopefully, there are ways to disagree and share opinions while respecting others’ faith for and in the Church.
cwald wrote:At stayLDS, is it more important to defend the church, be loyal to the church, or speak up and voice opinion even if it goes against the church and makes the leadership look bad?
My answer: Stick to the rule:
Quote:No topic is off limits, as long as it is approached and discussed in a civil, non-threatening, understanding way. It is fine to express disappointment, frustration, despair, grief and any other manifestation of internal struggle; it is not acceptable to dwell on bitterness, anger and strident accusations. It is fine to voice institutional concerns; it is not acceptable to disparage or criticize individual leaders – or to condemn “The Church” itself.
To me, its not about catering to TBMs who may be lurking, it is about helping those on this site and who read the site to work through issues, which is the site mission. If venting or criticizing helped that mission, it wouldn’t be out of bounds. Those that have setup the site feel it won’t, and these boundaries are set. That doesn’t make it right or wrong for everyone, just is the rules of engagement decided upon here in hopes it helps the most people.
I personally love your comments on this site, and hope you find value in participating. Brian gets lots of emails personally thanking us for providing a positive environment to discuss these things. I know some people who have moved on to LDS.net, others to NOM or other places. I don’t think there is a defined process of where to go next, it is up to the individual.
But our mission is to help people stay LDS, whatever that means to them, and avoid hurting people’s faith, if at all possible. That is our mission. I don’t know, I guess I personally reject the idea that the only logical and reasonable path is to “escape” from the church. I truly believe there is a middle way. I try to live it. I try to share my views with others as a support for those who don’t want the extremes. So I respect the boundaries set in this forum, and sometimes avoid some topics, but I greatly enjoy reading others’ thoughts and stories. I do not think it is about “defend the church”, but more about “defend the individual”.
Heber13 wrote:…I truly believe there is a middle way. I try to live it. I try to share my views with others as a support for those who don’t want the extremes…
That’s what I’m trying to do.My husband & I have agreed to raise our children going to church, but I also give my interpretation of things, hopefully to keep my children from learning too many dysfunctional beliefs.
I realize that most of us have a need to belong to some type of group.
I also realize that just as no person is perfect, no group is perfect.
At this time, I see the net value of being involved with the church as more beneficial than not.
This might change after my kids are grown, but for now, it’s good, I think.
As far as other online support communities – I don’t know.
Several people from NOM were frustrated similarly & wanted to move on, but didn’t know where.
One started his own forum but it got a lot of spam & fizzled out.
BTW Heber, you have a kind way about showing empathy for others – & focusing on the good.
I admire that.
As the admin who probably writes more comments that some people view as “mental gymnastics” than anyone else here, all I can say is that we moderate quite rarely here – but we also try very hard to keep the mission of the site alive and meaningful. Brian said it really well when he mentioned how hard it is to have the same conversations over and over and over again – and it also is hard for those who have heard those same conversations multiple times and need different help to continue to participate. In those cases, sometimes the best option really is to leave – to take a break or to leave altogether.
Personally, I have come to care deeply about those who participate here – but I also care even more deeply that each of them do whatever they need to do in order to find peace and joy. I’ve said that multiple times, and I really mean it. So, to answer the postStayLDS.com question:
Lots of places are possible, depending entirely on the needs of each individual. Some leave here and return to activity in the LDS Church without online support; some leave here and move to more traditional online sites (which are numerous); some leave here and move to sites that allow more “pure venting”; some visit multiple sites at various times for differing needs; some leave the LDS Church entirely but still try to help others stay who want to stay; some leave the LDS Church and this site completely; etc.
Bottom line:
We have a mission, and we welcome anyone who is interested in that mission. If someone is not interested in that mission, they aren’t welcome here – even as they might be loved, admired and respected nonetheless. That is true of those on both “sides” of every issue. Our mission isn’t about only staying LDS; it also is about being respectful of others and looking for ways to embrace differing viewpoints. We aren’t established to support dogmatism of any kind – and I hope what little moderation we do doesn’t skew exclusively toward being directed at any one type of personal belief (except, as I said, dogmatism and rejection of others).
I would love to have you stay, cwald – at a personal level. However, more than that, I want you to be happy – and if staying here doesn’t allow that or actually takes you away from that, I want you to leave. I hope we have helped you in some way find the peace you want so badly, but I can’t know or dictate how that will continue to happen. It’s not my call, and all I can do is wish you God speed in your journey – whether that is with us here at StayLDS.com or with us in spirit only.
cwald wrote:So why do we stay here..at a site designed to help people stay in a church that many of us wish we could escape?
I totally get where you are coming from. I actually don’t want to escape though. I wish I could be more active in church. I miss it. I choose not to go lately though to put my family’s happiness above my own. I have the reverse problem most folks have.
cwald wrote:Is it because we are are addicted to the bloggernacle?
Probably a little truth in that. I let my participation online interfere with my work sometimes, to a point I probably shouldn’t.
Old-Timer wrote:…I hope we have helped you in some way …
Sure. No question on that. StayLDS helped me navigate a soft landing (all things are relative) out of activity. I am not really trying to criticize the board or the mission of StayLDS.
I’m not saying my goodbyes either. Done that once…didn’t take. I’m just transiting to a different faith and trying to figure out if stayLDS has a part in it. I just don’t know if there is much of a point really?
Exactly two years this weekend, the wheels fell off the bus for me. Of course, I’m sure many of you remember Oct. 2010 General Conference. That was the week of the ominous 14 Fs talks and Oaks Two Lines of Communication. What a disaster. October 3, 2010 was the day I finally realized there was very little chance that Mormonism would work for me. It was also the day I finally registered at NOM. Yet, I toughed it out, with the help of StayLDS and NOM for another 7 months…looking for a middle way, until family decided I had no right, as an apostate and heretic, to be a part of their church.
Wow. I would never have thought such a despicable action, could have been such a blessing. The gods do work in mysterious ways.
At that time I was emotionally and spiritually invested into the institution…and couldn’t conceive of life outside of church, or life without involvement and contact with extended family. I do regret and still get bitter about what the church has done to my family dynamic. And yes, I blame the church for that. But, I do believe I have come to terms with being an apostate heretic.
Mormonism is kind of becoming boring to me.
Peace.
That is all for now.
Chad Waldron – Bend Oregon.
cwald, at the risk of being accused of mental gymnastics 
Yes, the Church has a part in the responsibility for what happened to you in that those who did it to you took what some leaders said and used it the way they did – but:
1) Can you credit the Church in any way for the actions of those who treated you the way you should have been treated?
2) Can you acknowledge that there are many other members like you in many ways in other areas and units that have received very different treatment from their own fellow congregants and leaders – when those people heard the same things your family and local leaders heard?
You know, I’m sure, that I’m not trying to lessen or dismiss what you’ve experienced. I admire your effort throughout your time here greatly. I’m just saying your experience is nowhere near universal. It is too common, but the opposite experience is very common, as well.
I think it’s important, at least, to recognize and acknowledge that.
Old-Timer wrote:… I’m just saying your experience is nowhere near universal. It is too common, but the opposite experience is very common, as well.
I think it’s important, at least, to recognize and acknowledge that.
Sure. I acknowledge there are great people within the church. I made that comment already…that I believe the members are true, even if I don’t believe the church is.
My problem is not with the members, or even my family. My issue is with the church structure, culture, doctrines and teachings. I prefer not to go into it any more than that however. Really no point in getting into specifics. I am trying to be somewhat positive and supportive in this thread at this time all things considered…I generally leave specific issues out of it on this board. The MormonThink thread being the exception…but even then I went back and deleted three posts that I felt might not serve the goals of the stayLDS site.
Quote:… According to your own words in multiple posts, there were other members (most notably, your direct local leader) who acted in a VERY different way…
Asked and answered.
🙂 Sorry to derail this thread with musings and whining of the past. Perhaps we can get back to discussing options of a post stayLDS world?
/back to the originally scheduled program 
In many ways, I think a Post StayLDS.com world is an unplugged social faith. Once going through the coping mechanisms, you turn to people around you and have conversations with them. Of course, you should learn some people will never be safe to discuss things with, so not EVERYONE, but more the ones around you that you typically interact with. Bishops, HTrrs, VTers, neighbors, friends, kids, family, ward members. The key is, you allow yourself to believe what you believe and others to believe what they believe, and you find love and respect regardless. I still can’t have the doctrinal discussions with my wife, but that’s ok. I don’t need to have them with anyone. I’m just me. If people ask me about it, I’m happy to talk. If people preach to me, I’m happy to talk. If people preach to my kids, I’m happy to step in and correct/support. Sometimes I go to church, sometimes I don’t. Sometimes I am inspired by lessons, sometimes I shrug it off. Sometimes I go to NOM and post, sometimes WheatAndTares.org to get more doctrinal, sometimes ByCommonConsent. I still probably spend more time on LDS.org in my studies than any other site.
I would guess, like everything else, you can have too much StayLDS.com. I’m not saying any of you are on here too much or have that problem…I’m just saying I think all things should be done with temperance, including posting to this site, and if you leave and go toother sites, you can come back and bring more perspectives back here.
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