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March 22, 2010 at 1:52 pm #204855
Anonymous
GuestWhen I was more TBM I found the church to answer so many questions. It was so large and all encompassing. I could see no need for anything else. I spent hours reading and studying church materials and the scriptures. Not to say I ever really felt totally comfortable in the church but it was my tribe and culture from my youth so that is what I did. Then when the cognitive dissonance became so great on certain issues I was able to make the mental leap and begin to accept that not all was as it was portrayed. I began a voracious study of the actual history of the church. I spoke to others on boards like this. I listened to podcasts. I read books on religion in general and its history. I spent hours talking to another NOM type friend about everything Mormon. AS time went on the largeness of the church began to shrink. It no longer contained all the answers (if it ever did). It became so much more narrow and focused on just some basic concepts. At this point I could never go back and fit myself into being a total TBM. It would be so limiting to me. I have to question everything and have reasonable answers, or at least be able to reason out an answer. I do not begin to have the time to study and read everything I want to about religion and spirituality. My world is so much bigger and fascinating than it use to be. I am still an active Mormon and enjoy many aspects of the church, but it’s doctrine no longer is the center of my existence and it is a much smaller portion of my spiritual understanding.
I am curious if others have experienced something similar to this.
March 22, 2010 at 4:52 pm #228627Anonymous
GuestI think it shrinks and expands, actually, at least in my experience. These are the stages I recall: 1 – when I was young, the church was broader than my own views; I was learning new things all the time, and it seemed that the church had answers for all the questions.
2 – as I got older, I discovered that there were sometimes better answers from other sources, and I also found that some of the answers from church were things I didn’t necessarily accept. The reasons that others found acceptable didn’t work for me. I didn’t buy the explanations for polygamy or for the living of the united order, for example. I felt that I was doing better on my own to get answers.
3 – as I got even older, I realized that the doctrine is much more fluid like nailing jello to a tree, despite the rigidity of some of the orthodox within the ranks. And that there are differing opinions that are accepted on a wide array of matters. That what some people find compelling, others find unacceptable.
4 – the older I get the more I see that all churches are systems to help people improve and realize their potential, to provoke personal change. And I see that the church is very effective at that in ways that other churches and the absence of a church don’t do as well. I have stopped seeing the church as a library of answers and more as a social system to effect and support personal change.
March 22, 2010 at 4:58 pm #228628Anonymous
GuestCadence wrote:When I was more TBM I found the church to answer so many questions. It was so large and all encompassing. I could see no need for anything else. I spent hours reading and studying church materials and the scriptures. Not to say I ever really felt totally comfortable in the church but it was my tribe and culture from my youth so that is what I did. Then when the cognitive dissonance became so great on certain issues I was able to make the mental leap and begin to accept that not all was as it was portrayed. I began a voracious study of the actual history of the church. I spoke to others on boards like this. I listened to podcasts. I read books on religion in general and its history. I spent hours talking to another NOM type friend about everything Mormon.
Cadence, I went though this same pattern, almost exactly as you described above, except I think I did feel part of the church growing up. But, Yes, I went through a crisis that could not be supported in my current church experience, as I saw it. No prayer, scripture study, or church attendance helped me, and so I began a search for more truth outside the normal church materials that really opened my eyes to lots of things that I never looked at before.
Cadence wrote:AS time went on the largeness of the church began to shrink. It no longer contained all the answers (if it ever did). It became so much more narrow and focused on just some basic concepts. At this point I could never go back and fit myself into being a total TBM. It would be so limiting to me. I have to question everything and have reasonable answers, or at least be able to reason out an answer. I do not begin to have the time to study and read everything I want to about religion and spirituality. My world is so much bigger and fascinating than it use to be.
I am still an active Mormon and enjoy many aspects of the church, but it’s doctrine no longer is the center of my existence and it is a much smaller portion of my spiritual understanding.
While I have learned so much more and broadened my vision of things, Idon’tview it as the church shrunk or the church was previously limiting my views, as if I was just “hypnotized” by its influence, and only now have awakened. I do feel more enlightened by what I’ve studied the past 18 months or so, but only to realize I have so much more to learn and understand. The church hasn’t changed, in my opinion, and is why I have come back to it as the best place for me to stay and be a part of…because I think I limited my view before with a incorrect vision of what the gospel was when I was a TBM. I didn’t study a lot of things out for myself, I just kept myself safe within the church leader quotes and lesson materials and kept myself within that bubble. And I was missing so much. Now that I read stuff from Buddhism or outside sources…I have allowed myself to be blessed by non-church material, and it enhances what I think the church teaches. And I really needed that at this point in my life. The church doesn’t care if I do that or not…I was the one that
assumedthe church didn’t want me to look at that stuff before, and so I limited myself from understanding things better. I cannot go back to being TBM either, but it is because I have changed. And now that I’ve allowed myself to do that, I think I see the church has no problem with people like me that need to question everything and search things out and think diagonally. I’m not angry, I don’t seek to cause contention, and I’m not critical. I still teach my kids what I think they should know, and I have developed greater love and tolerance for others.
The purpose of the church is to bring people closer to Christ…for some, that is to protect them from things that can threaten them, for some it is to spoon-feed things until they can think more on their own, for some it is to give them a job so they stay busy, for some it is a social network, and for some it is to think freely and be Liahonas (vs. Iron Rodders). Those are just a few of the things the church can be to individuals.
Just because I’ve changed, and now I don’t limit myself any longer like I did before, I still find I have a place in the church. I think that place was always there for me, and is for others like me and you. I think a lot of people go through what we do…and the reason the church didn’t fail a hundred years ago is that as people go through it, the church can still be just as important to multiple types of people…not just the plain vanilla crowd. The orchestra just keeps growing and sounding better as it does.I find it interesting to read how others go through it also…and I don’t expect my view is any better or more correct than yours or anyone else’s. As long as the outcome is leading to peace and growth, it is all good.
But that is how I see it and how I’ve come through it thus far…more for me to figure out though.
March 22, 2010 at 5:48 pm #228629Anonymous
GuestFwiw, I reconciled the difference between the Church and the Gospel and me long ago – and I don’t need the Church to be expansive. The “Gospel of Mormonism”, if you will, still blows my mind on a regular basis – and I use the Church as a way to help and lift and serve others of “my people”. In that sense, it probably is both shrunken and expanded compared to how others view it – but it is the right size for me, since I tailored it to fit me.
March 22, 2010 at 7:29 pm #228630Anonymous
GuestI so understand how you feel. One of the very first concepts that I let go of was that “other churches were not true”. I had been taught that they were, “all wrong” and that they “draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me”. For most of my life, I had stayed away from spiritual writings that were not published by the LDS Church. It was a very strange change that came over me.
After I returned from my mission, I found myself in the Primary. I had been called several times as Ward Nursery leader, in several wards actually. Sometimes, this was difficult because I had 3 small children and was also a licensed family home daycare provider at the time of my first nursery calling. I often felt a need for a bit of quit time to just contemplate Christ without having to attend to so many small children.
About 18 months ago, I was cleaning up the nursery and preparing to take out the garbage. Years ago, we fired the ward janitors and just had members clean the church. The nursery area has always been a problem. Food, dirty diapers, broken toys and crayons can make the nursery look dirty and smell bad. We have 3 to 4 wards in the same building, so each nursery leader has to really clean up before the next ward comes. There was no sink to wash ones hands and no closet to store things in. I was starting my third year in the nursery. One day, I just garbed the giant bag of smelly garbage and stared down the trash can. I felt as empty as that trash can! I would hurry and clean the nursery, try to make sure that all of the children were safely reunited with parents and that the library materials were returned. This would always make me late for sacrament meeting and other ward members would give me cold stares as I slipped into the back, always a few minutes late.
I realized that my spiritual needs were simply not being met, so I turned to other sources. Sometimes I’d find things on the internet. Friends would give me books and I’d listen to spiritual music on you-tube. I began to absorb and embrace so much of what I was learning. I could no longer limit myself to just LDS materials. This was when I started to question some of the things I had learned in the Church. Well, I ramble, sorry. I hope you can understand.
March 22, 2010 at 9:21 pm #228631Anonymous
GuestYes, Cadence, that was my experience also. I find the reasons I began to look outside the Church for answers to be very interesting. There are two.
First, I felt that biological evolution was a true principle, and yet I was hearing Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce McConkie and Mark Petersen (dating myself, I know…) denying it vehemently. This placed me in a position to question and learn at an accelerated pace.
Second, I had spiritual experiences that no one was talking about, in the Church. I sought understanding, and there was just silence. So I sought others who not only experienced it, but were willing to discuss it. And I found them.
HiJolly
March 22, 2010 at 10:15 pm #228632Anonymous
GuestEspecially for people that are the type drawn to a site like this, those who are just wired to ask and ask and wonder and ponder the “system” or our religious experience, I think going outside to other “subject matter experts” helps a lot. By that, I mean that there are other faith traditions that focus a LOT on specific aspects of our spiritual experience. Sometimes those offer a lot of great answers. I have generally found it not that hard to bring those ideas back into the larger concept of a “Mormon Gospel.”
March 23, 2010 at 5:05 am #228633Anonymous
GuestI kind of feel the same way. I look at the church, or the culture, or the LDS gospel .. whatever you want to call it personally as a step back. As in a step back in the wrong direction – in my mind growth can no longer be found in the walls of church service (3 hour blocks, meetings). It is actually pretty damaging to me. Better I study all aspects of life and spirituality at a distance, at least for now. I totally know what you mean though, and I converted at 19 ( Maybe 18 .. Oh well)
:March 23, 2010 at 12:31 pm #228634Anonymous
GuestYep, Cadence, I couldn’t have said it better myself. For me it was as if the flood gates opened and I was no longer limited. I no longer had to fit every piece of human knowledge into the church context. I no longer had to explain away evolution, homosexuality, the after-life, etc. etc. Before, I had to fit everything into my Mormon world view, sometimes with great dissonance. Nevertheless, I was able to do it. I no longer feel bound to accept/reject things based on the Mormon worldview. For me it was most liberating. It occurs to me, however, that this is more a function of me (and my culture growing up in Utah) than the church itself. I was highly orthodox, and very strict in interpretation. I was the type who read Mormon Doctrine and bought it all hook, line, and sinker. I was the stereotypical TBM. So it is not surprising that when I fell, I fell hard, and felt more liberated.
March 24, 2010 at 4:09 am #228635Anonymous
GuestI’m not sure what the ponds would be in my analogy, but it seems like we go from being a small fish in a big pond to being a big fish in a small pond, then we get moved to an even bigger pond with even bigger fish, and once again we feel like a small fish in a big pond again. Maybe the ponds represent James Fowler’s Stages of Faith, maybe they represent the developmental stages of life (i.e. childhood, adolescence, adulthood, etc.), maybe they represent something else, but the point is that I think as we grow and develop, we see the world differently. So to sum up, I think the Church has indeed shrunk in your mind, and the minds of many other people here. Or maybe it would be more correct to say that the church hasn’t shrunk, but our minds have grown. March 24, 2010 at 3:22 pm #228636Anonymous
GuestGrowing causes growing pains. Sometimes we forget that.
March 25, 2010 at 3:11 am #228637Anonymous
GuestEuhemerus wrote:Before, I had to fit everything into my Mormon world view, sometimes with great dissonance. Nevertheless, I was able to do it. I no longer feel bound to accept/reject things based on the Mormon worldview. For me it was most liberating.
Yes I think this is a very good way to put it. Trying to make everything fit into the Mormon World view proved very stressful and limiting at times. funny how you do not realize this when you are in the middle of it.
Euhemerus wrote:It occurs to me, however, that this is more a function of me (and my culture growing up in Utah) than the church itself. I was highly orthodox, and very strict in interpretation. I was the type who read Mormon Doctrine and bought it all hook, line, and sinker. I was the stereotypical TBM. So it is not surprising that when I fell, I fell hard, and felt more liberated.
The only thing I would say about this is I hear many people say that much of the culture and orthodoxy is created by the members themselves. I would agree with this, but the leaders still do very little or nothing to dispel this type of devotion. So in my mind by doing nothing to alter the behavior they condone it. For example if I told a GA that I read the BoM 90 minutes a day would he say something like “you need a little more balance in your life read Tolkien”. I do not think so.
March 25, 2010 at 1:11 pm #228638Anonymous
GuestCadence wrote:Euhemerus wrote:It occurs to me, however, that this is more a function of me (and my culture growing up in Utah) than the church itself. I was highly orthodox, and very strict in interpretation. I was the type who read Mormon Doctrine and bought it all hook, line, and sinker. I was the stereotypical TBM. So it is not surprising that when I fell, I fell hard, and felt more liberated.
The only thing I would say about this is I hear many people say that much of the culture and orthodoxy is created by the members themselves. I would agree with this, but the leaders still do very little or nothing to dispel this type of devotion. So in my mind by doing nothing to alter the behavior they condone it. For example if I told a GA that I read the BoM 90 minutes a day would he say something like “you need a little more balance in your life read Tolkien”. I do not think so.
I hear you, and agree completely. I’m definitely not saying that the leaders couldn’t do something about it. You’re absolutely right. Although, I must confess I’m not one who buys into the “silence = consent” idea very much. It depends on the circumstance but I try to focus onwhat they sayrather than what they don’t say. If you think about your example, it’s a no-brainer. If you tell Steve Jobs you have 10 Apple products, he won’t tell you to buy a Windows machine! The leaders of the church believe in the product they are selling. Why would they discourage you? I think in the minds of many people (perhaps including the leaders) if the leaders gave an inch, the members would take a mile!
March 25, 2010 at 3:55 pm #228639Anonymous
GuestOld-Timer wrote:Growing causes growing pains.
Sometimes we forget that.
That’s a very simple statement, but a very true one. It’s amazing sometimes how just a few words like that can mean so much more than dozens of polysyllables…
Quote:The only thing I would say about this is I hear many people say that much of the culture and orthodoxy is created by the members themselves.
Well, I made the mistake of mentioning that I knew Elohim was a plural word in Hebrew in home teaching once. I don’t think the HTs liked the fact that I said this, but AFAIK it isn’t something that actually clashed with the teachings. Still, I did feel a bit taken aback by it.
March 28, 2010 at 8:57 pm #228640Anonymous
Guestldsmaverick7 wrote:Or maybe it would be more correct to say that the church hasn’t shrunk, but our minds have grown.
This is the way I see it.This is sort of what I meant in my open-minded post. Realizing that everything does not have to fit into the world of Mormon doctrine and teaching allows our minds to “open up” to other possibilities. There’s a sense of freedom to explore and acquire an unlimited amount of knowledge and to make our own conclusions. I also feel like I can be more respectful of others choices too. I always felt that I respected “others rights to make their own choices even if they are unrighteous”. Now I realize that what is righteous or unrighteous is not always so clear. Each religion (or school of thought) has their own agenda on the subject of what is right and wrong. I believe that we each have the right to choose what our own agenda is as long as it does not inflict on the rights of others. I don’t think I could go back to being a TBM either but there are some beliefs I wish I could get back and maybe someday I will. In the topic “Atonement and Repentance: your thoughts” Ray made this comment : “it is only a belief that what they become matters eternally that gives them the motivation to act differently than they would without that belief.” I wish I could get back that same motivation because when I had it I really could do more than myself. My world of what I could achieve, in that sense, seemed larger. I’m still young though and I hope there is plenty of room to learn and grow yet.
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