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Quote:
Alma 32: 21
21 And now as I said concerning faith faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not seen, which are
trueAccording to this scripture I have always believed it is not possible to have true faith in something if it is not a true concept. Using polygamy as an example. It was either true direction from God or it was not. If it was not then is it impossible to have faith in a false doctrine? If you have faith in a false concept or doctrine to the point that you believe it is true, is it no longer faith but delusion. So how can you have faith in something until you know it to be true, otherwise it is not faith but delusion.
Chicken or the egg
Unfortunately plenty of people have faith in false things. Look at all the pyramid schemes etc inflicted on people. Sam, I think Cadence’s point is that those things are examples of “belief” or “confidence” – NOT “faith”. I agree with that point – that for faith to have independent meaning, it can’t be just belief.
Cadence – I agree too. Lots of things masquerade for faith. I think lately the tendency is to equate faith with confidence to act (which it entails), but if we judge faith by actions alone, that doesn’t mean that we did in fact do the right thing. There’s a danger in focusing too much on faith = action vs doubt = analysis paralysis, although that is a valid way to look at James 1:5-6. It’s just that there’s more to it than just confidence to act. Old-Timer wrote:Sam, I think Cadence’s point is that those things are examples of “belief” or “confidence” – NOT “faith”.
I agree with that point – that for faith to have independent meaning, it can’t be just belief.
Not sure about this. I’m trying to think of things that can definitively be proven false (which are few and far between), yet plenty of people have had faith in false things. Or at least things which appear very contradictory.
I think there is a difference between faith in just anything, and faith Jesus Christ unto salvation. Most of the scriptures are talking about faith in Christ.
Quote:plenty of people have had faith in false things.
Which goes back to how someone defines faith . . .
I think Cadence is saying that, according to the verse he quoted, it really isn’t “faith” if it’s just confidence and belief in false things.
Of course, as this conversation has demonstrated, one of the problems we have when we discuss “faith” is that not everyone agrees completely on the core definition.
Cadence wrote:…is it impossible to have faith in a false doctrine? If you have faith in a false concept or doctrine to the point that you believe it is true, is it no longer faith but delusion.
As far as I’m concerned faith is almost exactly the same thing as belief especially belief without much proof to support it. However, unlike belief in general faith is commonly considered a positive virtue because it gives people more courage and conviction to do what they think is right.
Personally, I think many Muslims are just as faithful as any Christian but at the same time I assume that much of this is actually faith in false concepts. What I really think is wrong is for people to try to force others to accept their own beliefs that are mostly based on faith. If you can support your belief with solid logic and evidence then there’s a much stronger case for expecting others to believe it as well, otherwise you might as well expect some people to resist accepting the same beliefs.
The way I differentiate between faith and simple belief is that faith also requires trust. I would define trust as placing confidence in or reliance on something. I think that we can believe in things without having any trust in those things. belief = belief
faith = belief + trust
So I believe that people can have faith in things that are not true.
On a side note, I gave a talk a while ago in sacrament meeting where I read that verse and then said that I have no idea what that verse means after faith is not to have a perfect knowledge.
Yes, I also agree with Cadence. I will happily admit that faith is the number one problem I have had in my faith journey (ironically enough). Simply put, I have yet to see a definition for faith that satisfied me. I agree with Hawk that too often we use the term loosely and associate confidence and action without focusing on the outcome. I am always a proponent of methods, and I usually push against the idea that the end justifies the means. But in the case of faith, I have to believe that it is both means and ends that must be encompassed, otherwise it’s only a half-baked religious tagline used to gain followers.
Going along with what Cadence has said, several LDS prophets/apostles have echoed the idea that Mormonism encompasses all truth. If there is truth to be found, it belongs in Mormonism. This is absolutely my favorite way of looking at Mormonism. And it is in this light that I love Ray’s ideas of a continual restoration of all things.
However, like the scripture on faith, it tends to ignore the elephant in the room regarding what is Truth exactly. Ah, there’s the rub.
Eu, What if Truth with a capital “T” is something beyond this world, and therefore is only manifested in certain ways that we can perceive, prove, or define based on our capacities in this world…I guess along the lines of “we see through a glass darkly”.
Based on those conditions in this life…we must have faith there is an absolute Truth, but accept that our capacities in this life will never allow us to clearly see them, and so our test in life is to continue to move forward testing things until we have confidence we are pretty close to the truth (Pareto’s 80/20 rule)…even if we won’t know for sure until the next life how accurate we are. In the mean time, being pretty close is good enough to move us towards our goals of happiness, peace, love, and enlightenment, and perhaps even getting closer than Pareto’s rule to increase our assurance of things we cannot see.
To me, that is faith in correct principles.
Faith in false concepts would mean we see through the glass darkly…and so we just guess and end up being further from the capital “T” truth…which will not help us achieve our goals. Even with good intentions (take teachings of Blacks and the Priesthood)…it is still the wrong things to have faith in and may eventually come to light.
I think “faith” is a belief in something which one cannot prove, or unable to prove at that particular point in time. It is something which has no material evidence for it. Now I know that I’m probably playing into skeptics hands by saying this but there are actually plenty of things in life which people have faith in, including the skeptics themselves. Surprisingly few things can be proven or disproven definitively. Even our existence is arguably illusion according to Hindus etc. I think that plenty of people had faith in David Koresh as a prophet. I tend to think that he wasn’t one, but I can’t actually say for sure whether or not Koresh actually did have spiritual experiences on not.
[edit to add – Nightwalden is right to factor in “trust” as well. I think it is a common theme. Faith is often linked with hope too.]
Sam, I think you said that well and is why many people will not allow themselves to ever say in their testimony, “I know something is true” – because there is that belief that somethings we cannot know for sure in our current state. Others seem to fully believe they really know and what they know should be truth for everyone (David Koresh followers). I personally think this line of thinking is what leads to cognitive dissonance in time.
Still, others accept we can only know things are far as we can possibly know them in this life…and that is good enough to declare “I know this to be true” (with the assumption that when we say I know…it means I know as far as it is possible to know something). Different people have different thresholds for being comfortable with the “I know” phrase, I think.
But, to liken it to the Matrix movie…even if we can’t tell if the reality we are living in is right or not until we get “unplugged”, I think we can be told of what the truth is, and even though we can’t see it, we can choose to believe it and live our life with that belief, and find rewards for choosing what is closest to the truth, even if we can’t prove it while we’re still “plugged in”. That is faith in correct principles, to me.
Hmmm. Maybe I don’t believe faith is necessary anymore. Very interesting thread!
I have faith the sun will rise in the morning. This is truly faith because it is an absolutely true concept or event. I have faith moon will disappear. This is not faith because it is a false concept. No amount of faith or belief will make it happen. It is delusion.
So in my mind the trick to having true faith is to determine what is true first. Yet how can I determine what is truth (concerning unseen things) without faith. This is the paradox.
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