Home Page Forums Spiritual Stuff Charity: Disputing Over Unsettled Doctrine is Unseemly

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  • #204939
    Anonymous
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    (NOTE: This post is about “disputing” – arguing, contending, fighting – NOT discussing in a civil and respectful manner.)

    In last week’s resloution post, I parsed the word “unseemly” and talked about how it appears to mean acting properly in individual situations. I mentioned that there seems to be an underlying assumption of a universal standard, but that, in practical terms, there is a need to be in tune with what is appropriate and not appropriate when there might be tension between a universal standard and the culture of the situation. In this post, I want to delve into that potential tension and try to articulate a solution to it that I believe can work regardless of the situation – a “universal standard” that still allows for individual adaptation according to unique circumstances.

    To introduce this standard, I want to quote extensively from Paul’s words in Romans 14. I believe the entire chapter deals directly with this aspect of charity (that it “doth not behave itself unseemly”), but I am going to excerpt specific verses simply for bevity’s sake. (Understanding that this still will be a long post.)

    Quote:

    1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

    To me, this says that we should welcome those whose faith is weak, but not in order to engage in “doubtful disputations”. This phrase (doubtful disputations) might mean arguments that are centered on the weak one’s doubts, BUT another alternative meaning that I believe fits the chapter better is “unsettled in opinion or belief; undecided”. This can mean that we should not disupte with those whose faith is weak over issues/doctrines/ etc. that are unsettled or undecided. Again, I believe this fits the example that Paul gives in the following verses very well.

    Quote:

    2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

    This divides the people being described into two sides – those who will eat anything (including meat) and those who eat herbs (and not meat).

    Quote:

    3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

    These two groups are working from different “cultural/religious standards” – and Paul’s initial message to each group is to not despise the other simply because of those differences.

    Quote:

    5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    Here Paul recognizes that people view different things differently (probably in reference to the Sabbath and religious holy days in this verse), and he asks everyone to reach a conclusion individually that can be that person’s “full” conclusion. In other words, he asks that each of us strive to understand our own situation and what God would have us do (even though he also says that we “see through a glass, darkly”), while accepting that others will reach different understanding for themselves.

    Quote:

    6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

    In this verse, Paul highlights a critical point – that those who disagree even with regard to things that they view as highly important (like the Sabbath and what is appropriate to eat) ALL do what they do “to the Lord” (as an expression of faith to God).

    Quote:

    10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

    This is an important point:

    We have to account for our own actions, so why do we worry about accounting for others’ actions?

    In that spirit, Paul adds:

    Quote:

    13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way. 14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

    There is a famous saying,

    Quote:

    “When in Rome, do as the Romans do.”

    This saying was taken from this chapter (in Romans), and, while I am not saying that we should participate in everything that is acceptable in other cultures, I am saying that charity includes being able to recognize which cultural aspects that others follow are fine to follow while among them and not use as the source for “doubtful disputations”.

    My father used to say to us, when we asked about whether or not we could do something,

    Quote:

    “Is it critical to your eternal salvation?”

    He did this NOT to limit what we could do by viewing everything as critical, but rather he did this to help us see that there are MANY things we can do that really are NOT critical to our eternal salvation. I believe he was teaching us to be charitable in not behaving ourselves unseemly – by helping us realize that we don’t need to enclose ourselves so tightly in proscriptive standards that we end up not being able to socialize with those whose standards are not as proscriptive (and vice-versa) – or whose standards are proscriptive in different ways.

    Quote:

    21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

    In summary, Paul restates his point – and he does so primarily to those for whom “eat(ing) flesh” and “drink(ing) wine” are not an offense and do not make weak. He is saying, in essence, that those who can handle it should not partake among those who can’t. In our modern Mormon vernacular, he is saying that those who are strong should adapt their behavior to accommodate “the weakest of the weak who are or can be called saints”.

    I would add only this, to bring the entire discussion full circle:

    Not only should be adapt our “physical actions” to accommodate the weak (by not eating and drinking that which would offend or weaken them), but we also should adapt our “verbal actions” to accommodate them (by not participating in doubtful disputations with them over standards that are “unsettled” and open to interpretation).

    The responsibility is NOT on the weak; it is on the strong. Let me repeat that: The responsibility is NOT on the weak; it is on the strong. If you think, for example, that the Word of Wisdom is trivial, inconsequential and not all that important, prove your strength by being charitable and abstaining for the sake of the weak – those for whom abstaining really is about their eternal salvation.

    #229623
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote:

    In summary, Paul restates his point – and he does so primarily to those for whom “eat(ing) flesh” and “drink(ing) wine” are not an offense and do not make weak. He is saying, in essence, that those who can handle it should not partake among those who can’t. In our modern Mormon vernacular, he is saying that those who are strong should adapt their behavior to accommodate “the weakest of the weak who are or can be called saints”.

    I would add only this, to bring the entire discussion full circle:

    Not only should be adapt our “physical actions” to accommodate the weak (by not eating and drinking that which would offend or weaken them), but we also should adapt our “verbal actions” to accommodate them (by not participating in doubtful disputations with them over standards that are “unsettled” and open to interpretation).

    The responsibility is NOT on the weak; it is on the strong. Let me repeat that: The responsibility is NOT on the weak; it is on the strong. If you think, for example, that the Word of Wisdom is trivial and not all that important, prove your strength by being charitable and abstaining for the sake of the weak.

    Okay, so firstly, you’re going off the premise that someone like me and other StayLDSers are the strong ones, and the TBMs are the weak one, which I think is very ironic and insightful—but every TBM on this planet would disagree with you. :) We can argue, opps- discuss- that another time.

    I guess my second thought that came to mind was your example about the word of wisdom. Paul is talking about the saints, but does this also not apply to all people. So if we are the strong ones, and our neighbor invites us over for coffee — should we not partake of it so we don’t offend someone on an issue that really doesn’t pertain to one’s salvation?

    Ray, it’s some good thoughts and insights on Paul. Thanks

    #229624
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Thanks for the reminder Ray. I really enjoy how you broke down the scripture reference. I will be using your thoughts in the future for myself. :)

    #229625
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Old-Timer wrote:

    The responsibility is NOT on the weak; it is on the strong. Let me repeat that: The responsibility is NOT on the weak; it is on the strong. If you think, for example, that the Word of Wisdom is trivial and not all that important, prove your strength by being charitable and abstaining for the sake of the weak.

    First, great post, Ray! I always like the thoughts about not judging/looking down on others…we are all doing the best we can, and I tend to “judge” (yes, it’s my issue, I know) people that judge others as…wrong to do so, but it’s me judging them to begin with 😯 :? .

    So who is strong…and who is weak? I guess the best approach to that is to simply love the other…however that works best! You wouldn’t invite a recently recovering alcoholic over to have beers…! I guess we should just think of the other’s position, and behave in a respectful manner.

    ;)

    #229626
    Anonymous
    Guest

    cwald, I never said anything about those here vs. TBM’s. I understand that generalization, but I don’t agree with it at all.

    There is no way to know, unless someone explains, why someone follows the Word of Wisdom – whether it is out of strength or weakness – charity or necessity. I said those who are strong in an area should exhibit that strength in meekness by not offending or risking harm to the weak – in areas that the strong don’t see as critical to their eternal salvation. I used the Word of Wisdom and the Sabbath as examples – and I am willing to bet that MANY “TBM’s” know they could be “responsible social drinkers” but don’t drink socially in order to support the communal standard and avoid creating an environment in which the weak would become alcoholics or simply drink to excess. I am saying ANYONE who follows the Word of Wisdom out of a sense of concern for the weak is exhibiting this aspect of charity – and those who fight the Word of Widsom SIMPLY because it is inconsequential to them are not being charitable in this regard.

    I could say the exact same thing about taking an R-rated movie to a house where the people there abstain from watching such movies – or serving pork to your Muslim friends – or refusing to take off your shoes in the house of Japanese friends who follow that custom – or serving Coke and Pepsi at a ward party in some units – or wearing a french-cut bikini to a ward pool party – or insisting on watching porn at almost any religious gathering – ad infinitum. I am saying that it is the responsibility of the strong to prove their strength by not flaunting it in front of the weak – no matter the level of their commitment to any religious organization. (I also will add that if someone can’t do this with regard to a particular issue, perhaps they aren’t as strong in that area as they believe.)

    I also said Paul urges members to establish their OWN moral compass internally – but then says to respect the moral compasses that those around them have established, as well. Notice I also said that it is the responsibility of those who would partake to abstain with those who would abstain – NOT that those who would abstain should partake with those who would partake. That is an important distinction in Paul’s words – that the strong need to sacrifce for the weak, not the other way around.

    #229627
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Old-Timer wrote:

    … I used the Word of Wisdom and the Sabbath as examples – and I am willing to bet that MANY “TBM’s” know they could be “responsible social drinkers” but don’t drink socially in order to support the communal standard and avoid creating an environment in which the weak would become alcoholics or simply drink to excess. I am saying ANYONE who follows the Word of Wisdom out of a sense of concern for the weak is exhibiting this aspect of charity – and those who fight the Word of Widsom SIMPLY because it is inconsequential to them are not being charitable in this regard.

    I would LOVE to put that theory to the test. Do away with the WofW temple requirement and lets just see how many of “us” will continue to follow it, JUST because we were concerned that our neighbors might become alcys. :) Okay, I’m being cynical again.

    I might respectfully disagree with this thought

    Quote:

    those who fight the Word of Widsom SIMPLY because it is inconsequential to them are not being charitable in this regard

    Yeah, they are being uncharitable (and rude) if they drink around those who they know don’t drink because of their religious beliefs. But I don’t know if they are being uncharitable if they drink on their own?

    I would certainly agree with your main point however. I do feel a responsibility to not tear down others faith, and if that means I have to keep my opinion to myself, and not discuss what I believe and have faith in with other members who are not prepared to handle it- than so be it. I will keep my mouth shut, and vent on this website. :D

    Nor should we tear others’ beliefs down in our own attempts to find our faith and pathway, and I do agree these are some good examples:

    Quote:

    R-rated movie to a house where the people there abstain from watching such movies – or serving pork to your Muslim friends – or refusing to take off your shoes in the house of Japanese friends who follow that custom – or serving Coke and Pepsi at a ward party in some units – or wearing a french-cut bikini to a ward pool party – or insisting on watching porn at almost any religious gathering

    I would also include that one should not smoke or drink tea in the homes of members, whether they follow the WofW or not. BUT is Paul saying that X should not drink coffee just because they were raised in the church and their parents don’t drink coffee, and their siblings don’t drink coffee, and their hometeachers don’t coffee – and if X DOES drink coffee on his own time he is being uncharitable and doing spiritual damage to the weak? I just don’t see it that way??? Maybe I’m just seeing it and empathizing more from the X point of view?

    #229628
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Quote:

    I don’t know if they are being uncharitable if they drink on their own?

    Thanks for asking that qualifying question. This post and aspect of charity really has nothing to do with what someone does in private. It’s hard to “dispute” by one’s self – at least for most people. ;)

    #229629
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I just got back from church and I DID NOT put on my suit. In fact, I wore a blue shirt, no tie, a cross (tucked into my shirt), khaki pants and my dress sandals. I’ll be honest, I did not feel like I was being uncharitable to the weak. I just don’t feel that way. I’m glad there are those who will do those things, for whatever reason, but it just doesn’t work for me. In fact, wearing a blue shirt and sandals is a great coping mechanism that helps me “keep going.”

    #229630
    Anonymous
    Guest

    cwald, fwiw, I wouldn’t put what you described in this category, generally – unless it was done in an obvious “nose-thumbing” extent. Then, in all honesty, I would. Much of this topic is attitude-related. Otoh, shorts, a tank top and straw hat would be something entirely different – at least if that was worn by someone who understands the standard of “Mormon Sunday dress”. An investigator or someone who doesn’t understand the culture is in a totally different situation, although I do believe that there is a charitable responsbility to try to figure out what the accepted norm is when I attend a different church’s services and abide by that norm.

    In my situation as of last week, given my calling, I put the way I dress when I attend in this category – since I have been asked specifically by my Stake President to wear a white shirt, tie and suit now. For me, it’s inconsequential, and for my new calling, it’s unsettled – so I will do it without “disputation”.

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