A few weeks back in

That’s great! Thanks for sharing.

I have gained a new love of the Book of Mormon, I’m not sure entirely where it’s come from, but I actually find it surprisingly easy to read now. (It has given me trouble in the past) I have also been tackling D&C again.

I found that after time, the D&C actually became a real favorite for me. Also, I quite like Moses in the POGP (not so much Abraham yet).

I too really like this post Sam. Its good to be able to sit back and reflect and your personal experiences and growth.

I’ve chickened out of “outing” myself as a Mormon, or someone connected to the church, a few times recently. I’ve yet to go there.

I’m in this same exact boat right along with you Sam, I wonder if it will ever happen.

Thanks folks. It’s an unusual experience. For years I didn’t feel connected to the church, and was an agnostic, despite being “on the rolls”, but recently for one reason and another, I felt that I should go back. Some of it is easy to pick up where I left off, but other stuff throws me, like when I can’t remember the proper name for something. The LDS pretty much has its own language, and a lot of words – “bishop” and “Sunday school” to use two obvious examples – have very different meanings to people outside it.

I do have a positive feeling about the Book of Mormon (lists of weights and genealogies aside!) which I don’t understand. I can’t square it logically, but it’s there. As a result, I’m reading it at least once a day now and I feel drawn back to it. The archeology side is hazy for me, but I’m learning to view it differently. Much of the appeal is somehow emotional. It’s curious.

I’m in this same exact boat right along with you Sam, I wonder if it will ever happen.

I’m sure there’s a few of us. I’ve led a life which has sometimes been wild, although not criminal (bar one or two drunken run ins with the police, but let’s not go there!), so I think it would surprise some people who have known me for a few years. In fact, when a friend said to me a few months ago “Oh no, you’re not a Mormon, are you?”, it actually set me thinking about it. At the time I said, “No”, which I believe to have been an honest answer although technically my name was still buried deep within the church computers. However, I couldn’t really say the same now. Some of it does feel right to me (not all of it admittedly), but I’ve always had a real issue about talking about faith when I’ve felt it. That actually dates back to before I joined the LDS, and I had attended other churches. It’s probably part of my personality, as I’m fairly shy and don’t say too much unless I’m comfortable with someone.

There seem to be two contradictory stereotypes of Mormonism, one where LDS sacrifice babies (and worse) in some kind of sinister secret temple rituals and all have fifteen wives each (after being subjected to some form of hardcore brainwashing),* and the other which is more Osmondish, very squeaky clean, a bit too goodie goodie and probably goes with people seeing missionaries in neat suits etc. I suspect I’ll have to tackle both of these at some point!

* I did a google for Mormon and “David Icke” and came up with this (not an anti-Mormon site itself) but it should give some of you a laugh.

http://mormonism.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_mormon_reptilian_conspiracy

Just an update on how things are going…

I spoke with my bishop on Sunday and mentioned some of my problems (not doctrinal ones) and things I had done over the last few years. He seems a pleasant enough man, and actually said I was too hard on myself, but that there were things I needed to work on. Having heard some horror stories about bishops both here and other forums, it is a relief to find one who seems sympathetic. He had given a talk at Stake Conference some weeks ago, in which he discussed how some people had said to him that they were “not Celestial material”, and had said that in fact everyone is potentially. I said that I felt I was in that boat. I couldn’t go fully into my circumstances, because they are very complicated just now.

I think I had mentioned something on one of the other threads about the horrors of “outing myself” as a church member (or at least someone with an LDS background). Well, I’ve had three experiences with this.

On Sunday, because I was running late, I had to get a taxi. The taxi driver asked me if I was off to work. I said I was going to church. He said, “I can’t think of a church on [street name].” I explained that there was a “Mormon” church there (I tend to find “latter day saint” doesn’t mean much to people here!). He then goes on to ask me if my parents were church members or if I was “recruited” (his word). I chickened out, and explained that it was a long story, that I had been out of the church for a long time, pretty much agnostic, and seeing if I could get into it again. Hmm… at least he didn’t make any negative comments, but his attitude was puzzled.

Today, I met with a friend, who had said to me “Oh no, you’re not a Mormon are you?” to me some months ago. I said “no” at the time, which was true, but today, as I was talking with him, I failed to explain my situation. Several times, I’d tried to lead up to it, but he kept changing the subject!

Then in contrast, I met with another friend, who is interested in native Americans and shamanism. He is heavily tattooed, and drinks lots of coffee (!), smokes etc. He probably knows more about my spiritual journey than most other folk. He knows of my interest in Buddhism, and I’ve discussed everything from skepticism to reiki to Christianity with him. Funnily enough, despite being far from Mormonism in obvious ways, he gave me a very sympathetic hearing, and I was able to set out my position well. I said that I still had great sympathy with Buddhism, and found a lot of its mindfulness techniques of great practical use – Mormonism does not work enough with the mind IMHO. I then went through my relationship with the LDS, explained how I’d been a member many years ago, and had come back. I said that I wasn’t sure if this was a phase, or whether it was something permanent, and that I didn’t agree with everything that the church had come out with, e.g. I do not believe women are subservient to men, that God was once “one of us” (I said I believed we all have potentials, but that I see God as being an omnipresent creator of the Universe), and that I didn’t agree with some of the church’s past practices to do with blacks. He asked me about polygamy, and i explained that it had indeed happened in the early church, and still occurred in some backwoods sects, but that the mainstream LDS had done away with it. I then told him about the church and native Americans (one of his interests) and said that it had been a mixed bag – early Mormon settlers had a better relationship with the natives than many Gentiles did, but that the Indian placement program was not something entirely to be proud of.

I then told him about the missionary thing and how I was very uncomfortable with it personally, because I’m not an in-your-face type of person. He had been “pounced on”, by a missionary while smoking outside a cafe, and asked if he believed in God, and handed him a card. Not the best method (the Church of Christ here is much the same, and goes round inviting strangers to church on the street) I explained that it was hard enough for me to tell him about the church, as a good friend of mine, let alone for me to tell complete strangers. If I ever win anyone over, I suspect it shall be through my actions of service, not through my words.

In summary, I told him that the church had said and done some stupid things. He asked me if I was a Mormon, and I said, “Well, actually I’m just me.” and that I agree with some of the stuff, and not with other bits. I said that my ideas about gays were quite different to the official church line, but also said that I loved the fact that the church does not believe in original sin – we get punished for our own misdeeds, not other people’s. He said stuff about how good could come out of evil, and how when we do wrong we can learn from it. I was able to quote some of 2 Nephi 2 (one of my favorite parts of the Book of Mormon) on how there is opposition in all things, and that it is because of sin and misery that we can have joy and salvation. He pointed out that this exists in nearly all religions, and I agreed. I said I didn’t take everything literally, and that I thought even myth had some value.

So that’s great. He reads a little bit, but isn’t college educated… however, I think he has often an intuitive grasp of a lot of spiritual matters. I don’t agree with him on everything, but because of his grasp of things, I didn’t feel as if I was playing defense all the time.

I find that most “Mormon” ideas work really great in the positive, and they are very unproductive when worked in the negative. I think the best way to describe what I mean is to give an example:

If we follow the rules (whatever those are) and go to the temple, we will grow closer to God. (positive, nice, power to you if this works! no problem, does not exclude explicitly, but can be viewed as a path for someone).

If those people don’t follow the rules (whatever our version happens to be) and they don’t go to the temple, they will never see God again. (Negative, exclusionary, assumes only your path works for everyone else when in fact it may not, assumes a lot about knowing the “mind of God” for sure, etc.).

So … the positive can work pretty good for people, the version where someone personally decides to strive towards an ideal. Great! But when that gets flipped around and used AGAINST other people to create fear of failure, and is used in a negative context, then it really breaks down fast as something divine and inspiring.

Going along with what Brian said, I think Mormons in general (and perhaps Mormonism is just this way) don’t consider the possibilities when the negative turns out positive or when the positive turns out negative. In other words, for me, this is where Mormon logic falls apart.

To continue Brian’s examples: if you pray, with real intent, you will receive a witness of the truthfulness of x. Nice positive feel, works for millions of people. But what if you pray with real intent and get…nothing? There is no answer in Mormonism. Leaders/people have tried to create an answer, but there really isn’t one.

Another example: if you don’t pay your tithing, don’t keep the WoW you will not enjoy the blessings that would come if you kept it. But what about the myriad people whose lives are richly blessed each day despite them not following the rules? Mormonism does have an answer for this – something like “yes but you would get more blessings if you obeyed.”

Both of these scenarios have strong roots in the scriptures in D&C that describe blessings as a consequence of following a rule “upon which it is predicated.” I think this is partly why we have a major pro-work, little grace mentality, and have a tendency to create a magical world view. While we don’t directly promise specific blessings for obedience (e.g. you’ll be rich if you pay your tithing) the culture creates it in part because all the blessings are predicated upon specific laws, and those laws are as described in the LDS church.