Home Page › Forums › History and Doctrine Discussions › Could this WofW story be for real?
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April 20, 2010 at 3:28 am #204951
Anonymous
GuestI ran across this thread while surfing around some of the blog links. I think it was in Common Consent. Anyway, after my initial shock from reading the post from a guy that lives in Finland, about having a SAUNA night at a church members house – it became more and more interesting and fascinating to me. Not so much the discussion of what is and isn’t the WofW, but the fact that this kind of thing apparently DOES happen in the church in different parts of the world. 😯 The comments on the post turned me off immediately, which is why Im bringing it over here to get some input. Most of the comments were “this is a sin…this is terrible” or “I think beer stinks so why would anyone want to drink it anyway?” I guess I’m more use to this site that allows folks a little more “freedom” to discuss and decide these kind of issues for themselves. Anyway, enjoy.Quote:I recently went to a sauna night at a church member’s house, and another member, very active, shows up with a can of beer. Really.
It turns out it is 2.8% beer, and he says drinking this isn’t forbidden by the Word of Wisdom because a grown man cannot get drunk off of it. He claims lots of Mormons do it. The host amiably disagrees, but he drinks no-alcohol beer. I’m skeptical as well, but I drink home beer and sima (which translates as mead), both of which have extremely low alcohol levels. I believe most Mormons here do, and in fact sima was served at our wedding reception in the stake center with no raised eyebrows. Another brother present drinks none of the above, citing the ‘appearance of evil’ concept. Later, I ask a very orthodox friend, and he says he doesn’t drink 2.8%, but he doesn’t think it is forbidden, and he mentions that his father and brother imbibe.
Is it possible for five Mormons to have different ideas about what the Word of Wisdom means, and yet they all believe they are keeping the Word of Wisdom? Is it significant that all five are very active life-long members? How about the fact that all five conduct temple recommend interviews?
PS – I might need to move to a ward in Finland.
April 20, 2010 at 4:40 am #229748Anonymous
GuestIt’s real. Norbert is a great guy. April 20, 2010 at 5:33 am #229749Anonymous
GuestI’m not saying right or wrong, but lots of missionaries in my mission drank “near beer” that had a lower alcohol content, and they didn’t feel they were breaking the WoW. I personally didn’t agree that was good for missionaries to do, but yes, lots of people interpret things differently. April 20, 2010 at 1:00 pm #229750Anonymous
GuestYa, I know this happens. To me, it is one of those things that leads to personal interpretations of the Word of Wisdom. I had mission companions that drank Neer beer…it didn’t bother me, but I didn’t feel right about it. Beer is beer to me, and I don’t get involved in breaking down the ingredient lists and putting limits on how much alcohol is acceptable. I’ll eat rum cake. I’ll eat Tirimisu … but I don’t drink neer beer and I don’t drink decaf coffee. I think the purpose of the Word of Wisdom is to keep temperance in all things…and don’t surrender my free agency for letting myself be under the influence of any substance that hinders my thinking. I don’t care about coffee or tea, but just accept it as part of the lifestyle choice I make to stay LDS. I focus on the meaning behind the WoW and not to “do’s and don’ts” list. I went to a party with my wife’s cousin recently (temple recommend holders) and a bunch of their friends from their ward. They all drank non-alcoholic beer. I had soda. At one point they asked me if I felt uncomfortable or felt like they were sinning. I just told them I didn’t care, they are adults, it doesn’t make me uncomfortable, but while I don’t see non-alcoholic beer as “bad” I also don’t see any reason I want to go out of my to drink it. I like soda. I’ll stick to that.
April 20, 2010 at 2:17 pm #229751Anonymous
GuestI think there is a HUGE difference between drinking Near beer and Aduls verses drinking 2.5% beer. Near Beer and Aduls is .5% alcohol. Domestic beer in Utah like Coors or Budwiser is only 3.2%. So from this post, Some Finland Bishops are drinking ALMOST the equivalent of our domestic beer and apparently SLC is okay with it. AND I’m happy for them. Like I said, I may need to move to Finland. I just cannot fathom that, even today, that SLC would allow this practice – even in Finland, and I’m most certainly positive they WOULDN’T allow it here in Oregon.
April 22, 2010 at 4:14 pm #229752Anonymous
Guestcwald wrote:…this kind of thing apparently DOES happen in the church in different parts of the world.
😯 The comments on the post turned me off immediately, which is why Im bringing it over here to get some input. Most of the comments were “this is a sin…this is terrible” or “I think beer stinks so why would anyone want to drink it anyway?”Quote:I recently went to a sauna night at a church member’s house, and another member, very active, shows up with a can of beer. Really…It turns out it is 2.8% beer, and he says drinking this isn’t forbidden by the Word of Wisdom because a grown man cannot get drunk off of it. He claims lots of Mormons do it…
I’ve always thought that it would be hard for many grown men to get drunk off 3.2% Utah beer. It would be almost like a contest where people try to drink a gallon of milk as fast as possible just to see if they can. I guess Mormon lawmakers think they are waging a war against the evils of alcohol abuse with some of these measures. For example, they only allow this weak beer and no wine to be sold in convenience/grocery stores. They even banned flavored malt beverages because they were worried about teenage girls getting drunk.
In other words, ideally any alcoholic beverages should supposedly be watered-down and not taste like candy or else they should be inconvenient to buy and heavily taxed. Personally, I think these restrictions will only lead to worse alcohol abuse because they will just make people more likely to start stocking up on hard liquor instead. This kind of anti-sin legislation also results in Utah losing a lot of business to border towns like Evanston, Wyoming and Wendover, Nevada.
April 23, 2010 at 12:25 am #229753Anonymous
GuestI would just drink American beer brands, most of them have no alcohol content anyway. (Joke) Seriously, are you sure that what was being spoken of here isn’t shandy?
By the way, I used whisky the other day to try and calm down a toothache. It was a rotten brand, and the pills I’d taken didn’t seem to work. I definitely didn’t drink it for pleasure, and I had about a thimbloe full each time to deal with the pain. Was this right or wrong?
April 23, 2010 at 1:08 am #229754Anonymous
Guestright or wrong? Probably neither. To me, this is a case of intent and medical understanding. a thimble of whiskey vs. medicine that has as much alcohol content
In my situation, the right thing would have been the medicine. In yours, I can’t say – since it’s your situation.
Having said that, I certainly don’t think what you did constitutes breaking the Word of Wisdom – unless you have daily toothaches you cause in order to imbibe.
April 23, 2010 at 4:19 am #229755Anonymous
GuestQuote:Is it possible for five Mormons to have different ideas about what the Word of Wisdom means, and yet they all believe they are keeping the Word of Wisdom?
Did they really ask that question? Seriously? Mormons have had widely different views and personal practices since …. 1838 when the WofW was announced. I swear this is true. My maternal grandmother’s side of the family hails back to pioneer Utah and all that. My mother could not convince my great grandmother that Mormons do not drink socially — That it is against the WofW. Of course becoming intoxicated was not a good idea, but seriously. My great grandmother from Utah did not understand that all Mormons abstained completely from alcohol. She wouldn’t believe it cause it wasn’t the way she was raised … in freaking hardcore polygamist Utah.
I’ve heard it said many times, the Swedish converts would sail half way around the world in a dangerous leaky boat, then walk 2000 miles from New York City across the plains to Utah, nearly dying to follow the restored Gospel, but watch out if you try to take away their beer and tobacco…
😯 Those are my ancestors😆 Oh and BTW, I served my mission in Germany where beer is a staple of the diet. They even have “kiddie beer” (a literal translation) there with extra vitamins in it that is considered a health drink (like near beer, it has almost no alcohol). I drank non-alcoholic beer on my mission, and I don’t recall being worried about getting in trouble with the members or other missionaries.
April 23, 2010 at 4:42 am #229756Anonymous
GuestBrian Johnston wrote:My mother could not convince my great grandmother that Mormons do not drink socially — That it is against the WofW. Of course becoming intoxicated was not a good idea, but seriously. My great grandmother from Utah did not understand that all Mormons abstained completely from alcohol.
I’m with your Great Grandmother…I think she understood it correctly, but somehow it morphed to total abstaining of alcohol, then they got bored with that and went after cola and chocolate (but the chocolate lovers won that fight), and then they backed off the cola. Ok, maybe that last part is just my own version, but I still don’t fret much over the current WoW interpretation. Whatever.🙄 🙄 April 23, 2010 at 4:44 am #229757Anonymous
GuestOld-Timer wrote:a thimble of whiskey vs. medicine that has as much alcohol content
I might start getting toothaches every Friday between 5 and 7pm, along with my work buddies.😈 April 23, 2010 at 10:05 am #229758Anonymous
GuestWell, if I was to drink whisky for pleasure it wouldn’t have been that particular brand. Put it that way. There was a story in the press some years ago about an old woman (and non-drinker) who got arrested for drink driving, apparently she’d been knocking back cough mixture of some kind!
The WoW is pretty clear on tobacco and alcohol, but then again, it’s not on tea or coffee (do they have to be hot?) and tells us to eat meat “sparingly”.
Check out verses 12 & 13
Quote:12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly; 13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
However, D&C 49 seems to say vegetarianism is a bad thing –
Quote:18 And whoso forbiddeth to abstain from meats, that man should not eat the same, is not ordained of God;
19 For, behold, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which cometh of the earth, is ordained for the use of man for food and for raiment, and that he might have in abundance.
April 23, 2010 at 4:30 pm #229759Anonymous
GuestSamBee wrote:I would just drink American beer brands, most of them have no alcohol content anyway. (Joke)
SamBee wrote:The WoW is pretty clear on tobacco and alcohol, but then again, it’s not on tea or coffee (do they have to be hot?)
I’m not so sure the WoW is really all that clear about alcohol as far as trying to claim that any moderate amount of alcohol is automatically bad. Sure it specifically mentions wine and strong drink but I doubt that very many non-Mormons would interpret beer to be a “strong drink” regardless of whether it contains 3.2-8% alcohol. People think this is what the Word of Wisdom means simply because that’s what they have been told, not because that’s what it actually says. In fact the WoW specifically says “All grain is good … barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks.” If beer is not, in fact, the most common and popular “mild drink” made from barley then I don’t know what is.
And if wine is really so terrible then why did Joseph Smith and other early Church leaders drink it on the night he was killed? John Taylor had the following to say about it, “It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us… I believe we all drank of the wine.” Basically, the WoW started out as a simple suggestion “not by commandment or constraint” and much later this was all changed to be a test of faith to really separate the active and obedient TBMs from all the Jack Mormons and non-Mormons who represent “the world.”
April 23, 2010 at 4:48 pm #229760Anonymous
GuestActually it’s always puzzled me why wine isn’t used in sacrament, but I supposed it was partly to do with this rule. April 23, 2010 at 6:12 pm #229761Anonymous
GuestI work at a college that was founded by and is affiliated with a Christian denomination. It’s not a “religious college”, but the affiliation is there. As part of my job, I have attended a couple of Sunday services at the local church of this denomination (not as a required act, but voluntarily to support days that celebrate the connection to the college). I asked someone before the service started if their beverage was wine. They use grape juice, specifically to not be serving wine to those who might have alcohol problems. The offical explanation is that the early saints were concerned about being poisoned by those from whom they would have to purchase sacramental wine, so they switched beverages. I really don’t care what we use, as long as it’s not nasty tasting – like coffee or Pepsi or Pepto-Dismal. **shudders at the mere thought** Water is the safest beverage imaginable as far as everyone being able to partake, so I’m fine with it.
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