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I know this is a very arbitrary question, but I am always curious what others think. A. It is all myth and legend. Nothing is factual and is all the fabrication of men
B. Some of the foundational divine events of the church happened but many were fabrications of early leaders like Joseph
C. All of the divine foundational events of the church did happen, but we have lost our way and the current church no longer speaks for God
D. No Foundational events occurred but we are still a Christian organization who preaches and teaches the will of God
E. It is 100% true just as it is taught every week in Sunday School
These are just different belief structures I thought up. If you have something else throw it in.
I don’t even like the word “true” anymore. There are about 20 definitions for it so it makes it REALLY hard to know what someone else means when they ask if something is true. Are we equating “true” with “literal fact and from God?” I go with: It is all symbolic regardless of its historicity. Even the events that may be historically factual don’t have to be for them to be symbolically true.
So, I am mostly A, but I don’t like that it totally rules out the possibility that certain things may have happened. I would give the same answer for any religion or spiritual path. I also reject that choosing A makes it “false.”
I think there is Absolute Truth, but I’m not sure how to determine it – so “I don’t know” would be my answer. I also believe DEEPLY that “The Church” is whatever we see it as, and I’m not being relativistic when I say that. For example the last option (“just as it is taught in Sunday School”) can mean that “the Church” is true but different all over the world – and I don’t have a huge problem with that idea.
I love the following quote, because I believe it is “true”:
Quote:We don’t believe what we see; we see what we believe.
Given that baseline, I would say I can agree with ALL of the options in some way – assuming I am trying to answer “universally”. For me, individually, I like just me’s option. “True” is much more encompassing than divisive the way I use it – and, again, I’m not being relativistic when I say that. (at least, not to the extent that most people would think)
Cadence wrote:B. Some of the foundational divine events of the church happened but many were fabrications of early leaders like Joseph
Where I’m at right now…I go with this response with the caveat that the “fabrications” in my mind were mostly done with good intention, trying to establish a church and teach things they didn’t always understand…but I also am aware of some fabrications that were deceitful on purpose for various reasons.
I still believe some foundational divine events did occur. That is where I’m at currently. I believe about 25-30% of the church is “True” as far as I define ultimate truth with a capital “T”, the rest I choose to make true by doing what just me says and make them meaningful through myth and symbolism because they benefit me and my family by doing so.
This is why I can accept and understand why some people leave the church…because if they don’t “want” to believe in the rest that I think is fuzzy (or take it on faith as some say), then I can agree with them there is no meaning behind it if they don’t put forth the faith to put personal meaning behind it (WoW, white shirts, or whatever). Kind of like what Ray just quoted…we believe what we want to believe (my paraphrase).
I also think that 25-30% puts the church up there above or at least in par with the best religions in the world. In other words, I don’t know of other churches with more than that % (clearly an unscientific ranking…but until I find more truth somewhere else, I remain where I’m planted and grow here).
by the way, Cadence, have you ever tried using the Polling option when creating a thread? After creating a new topic, scroll down below the text screen and you’ll see a tab where you can setup polling options. It is kind of fun for questions like this…you outta try it. Cadence wrote:A. It is all myth and legend. Nothing is factual and is all the fabrication of men
But what if the myth activates our mind and soul into an interaction with something unseen and unmeasurable that is real? IE, as we act in congruence with the myth, something ‘real’ begins to happen?
And just out of curiosity — I see point ‘A’ as being quite similar to point ‘D’. Maybe I’m missing the difference.
Cadence wrote:B. Some of the foundational divine events of the church happened but many were fabrications of early leaders like Joseph
I rather see it the other way around – many happened but perhaps some were fabrications…
Cadence wrote:C. All of the divine foundational events of the church did happen, but we have lost our way and the current church no longer speaks for God
Bleah. That’s the view of the folks who try too hard, IMO. I think it’s all a matter of our own integrity, and that’s where the magic is. So whether the foundational events happened or not is generally a moot point. But I suppose for those just beginning their journey, it would help…
Cadence wrote:D. No Foundational events occurred but we are still a Christian organization who preaches and teaches the will of God
Isn’t this where the Catholics are today? I think that *could* work, but it seems to me that most of the people would have to believe in the ‘foundational events’, whether they happened or not. How many can believe in the process but not the symbols? How many can convince themselves of the efficacy of the story sufficient to give up money, time, etc., regardless of literalistic interpretation? Not many, IMO. Mostly just some intellectuals and maybe some weak-minded people. Hmmmm…. Interesting dichotomy! Are we there yet?
😈 Cadence wrote:E. It is 100% true just as it is taught every week in Sunday School
I don’t think that’s possible, once you start really pursuing the truth. I suppose that’s one reason I’m here on StayLDS…
HiJolly
I’m in the B catagory Quote:Some of the foundational divine events of the church happened but many were fabrications of early leaders like Joseph
. And agree with Heber – I see almost NO possibly that E could be correct. That is just my opinion
Like Just Me, I’m also a little bit tentative to even use the word “true”. What does that mean? Perhaps the church needs to change it’s vernacular. Maybe use “good” or “divine” instead of true. I can certainly agree that the church is a “divine institution that god uses to fulfill his purposes” (probably one of many), but that doesn’t necessarily make it “true”?
“D” would work for me if you had ended it with at the phrase “preaches and teaches.” The “will of God” is subjective. I love Christ and try to live in accordance with his teachings. I am a friend to the Church and assist it in the programs that I can accept. I do personally feel that it is just another church on a street of churches. It is my cultural home, and I contribute in numerous ways (I will not be a janitor for the same, but that is my choice). I guess I limit the proposed descriptions of your thread. Forgive me. we human beings often walk narrow paths. And in the end, we really must walk alone, toward any divine light. I should add that my own definition of “true” is “ pointing in the proper direction – like ‘true north’ and ‘the arrow flew true’“. Therefore, I can say that “pure Mormonism” points me in what I consider to be the proper direction, so it is “true” – even though some of the culture and hedges about it don’t and, therefore, aren’t. Reading the different choices is a bit uncomfortable for me since it puts me in the position of thinking about things that by rights should require some action. If I hold to A and D then why am I paying tithing and ringing the bell to end SS. If option B is a choice then is some truth enough for a church that claims exclusivity over all the religions, christian or otherwise, in the world. C and E are options that to me aren’t worth considering. If you’re a believing christian then all the parts about the saviour and the atonement are true and you can just skip the foundational stories. If you’re not then none of it, historical or theological, matters anyway and you stay for your family or friends or because you have no where else to go. I guess I’d have to go with A since D infers we know God’s will and what he’d want taught. I know Ray was shying away from relativism but I’d like to embrace it… 😳 Religion, belief, myth, faith, spirituality are all so personal, I’d think that there should be a letter for every person in the world. Having said that, I sense that once a person has traveled through the stages of faith, A and E, the two extremes, actually start feeling like they are the same thing…
Here are the facts, as I see them. I think we can fairly well establish these points – 1) Church history has been whitewashed and idealized. This doesn’t make it false but it does make it likely to disappoint many people, when they come across the unauthorized version.
2) The church fulfils many people, and makes them happy.
3) The church fails many people, and makes them unhappy. (maybe some people are in both 1 & 2)
4) The church has done both good and bad in the past, judged well, and made misjudgments.
5) Regardless of how literally true they are, there are certain rituals within the church which have a deep symbolic value for some people.
6) The church has a pretty good social program, and services, and is enjoyed by children.
7) The church puts some heavy burdens upon people, in terms of time, commitment, and money.
The church generally isn’t keen on inquiry.9) The church evokes a lot of hostility from some quarters, often uncalled for.
10) A lot of the church’s scripture is unique to it (and a few much smaller sects)
swim, I think we embrace “relativism” in the same way. I just can’t go so far as to say there is no objective truth – and I think we agree there, as well. swimordie wrote:Having said that, I sense that once a person has traveled through the stages of faith, A and E, the two extremes, actually start feeling like they are the same thing…
That’s quite an interesting response, swim…I like it. I think that could be correct, it is all myth and all true, and the way it is portrayed in Sunday School class is not incorrect, but I can see it differently then everyone else hearing the lesson, and still all think our views are correct.GBSmith wrote:If option B is a choice then is some truth enough for a church that claims exclusivity over all the religions, christian or otherwise, in the world.
GB, I think some truth is “enough”, because the church’s claims seem to vary from apostle/president to apostle/president and I get the sense they embrace that other religions have plenty of truth and good works. They are just confident this church has more (but I wouldn’t agree with that). But although some like to think so, the church can’t claim to have ALL truth, since we know there is continuous revelation and additional scripture and we learn line upon line how church history is filled with lesser light and knowledge than what we have today, so I think it is consistent the church does not claim ALL truth, just enough to claim it is the true church.
Perhaps you can help me understand what you meant by “exclusivity” that causes you to dismiss B so quickly.
I’m going to pick A with a footnote, then explain why the others did not appeal to me logically. Cadence wrote:
A. It is all myth and legend. Nothing is factual and is all the fabrication of menYes, this is my pick. That is to say that the divine events are myth and legend. Although I should say that I am open-minded about it, I believe that none of the divine events are factual and they are the fabrication (or wishful thinking) of men. That said, church history is filled with many inspiring stories and inspiring people, and people who believed in the divine events accomplished great things because of their belief. We can learn from their experiences – even if it’s learning what
not to doin some cases. Additionally, the church is a good temporal organization which seems to have its house in order in terms of financial power and social institutions. Someone compared the church to the RCC and I think that’s apt… the RCC has such a disturbing history, but for hundreds of years it has provided the backbone of temporal institutions in society: schools, hospitals, charities, and social events. If you’ve been raised in it, it’s difficult to leave even if you no longer believe the stories and traditions around which the organization is built. Sometimes it’s not like you’re staying in a church (with the focus being worship of a literal divine being) but in a bingo club (with the focus being temporal – for the benefit of your family or community involvement). I wonder if there’s a StayCatholic website out there somewhere… Quote:B. Some of the foundational divine events of the church happened but many were fabrications of early leaders like Joseph
That would be an interesting mix, imo… Which foundational divine events could have occured while still leaving JS to fabricate the rest of it? Did God the Father and Jesus Christ really appear to tell Joseph to restore their church, only to have him make up the rest of it with no further inspiration or guidance? Perhaps the Book of Mormon was really divinely translated from gold plates, but Joseph lied about receiving the revelations recorded in the D&C? It is hard for me to conceive of a feasible combination that would make this so.
Quote:C. All of the divine foundational events of the church did happen, but we have lost our way and the current church no longer speaks for God
Would God restore his one and only true church to the earth through a series of fantastic divine events only to have it fizzle out and lose its way? I suppose it’s possible, but it seems less likely. JS said that the church has been restored in this dispensation of the fulness of times, never again to be taken from the earth.
Quote:D. No Foundational events occurred but we are still a Christian organization who preaches and teaches the will of God
If JS lied about directly receiving the will of God by revelation, it is difficult to see how the organization based on his fabrication could still be preaching and teaching the will of God in any real and literal way. If by the “will of God” you mean doing good deeds and teaching people about Jesus, then sure, we’re doing the “will of God”. But then why throw in all the foundational event stuff anyway? We shouldn’t pat ourselves on the backs for adding a little truth to the lies, or vice versa.
Quote:E. It is 100% true just as it is taught every week in Sunday School
I don’t think any of us would be here if we believed that was the case.
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